Naruto: Shippuuden Episode 1-2

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Originally Posted by Narasho

That isn't strictly true, unless the Sound Four were Jounins (While they didn't defeat Anbu persay, they did neutralize Anbu). Also, the only times Anbu did anything useful were saving Anko from those Lions during the Chuunin Exam, and the counter-attack on the Sand Village ninja during the invasion of Konoha.

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False. The Sound Four were Chuunin Level. Kimimaro probably was Jounin level though.

Their technique stopped the ANBU just because it burned them, but the technique persay is kinda useless if you are not guarding someone/something. You can not use it on battle.

They defeated Genma and the other guy (Aoba?) because the Jounins were tired from a mission, it was 4 on 2, and the Sound Four used their 2nd Lvl curse seal.

ANBU's aren't useless. They are simply ignored by Kishimoto. Its like saying every other nameless genin/chuunin/jounin/tokubetsu jounin are useless because they do not appear.

The sound 4 were jounin level in their curse seal lvl2 state, they managed to beat genma and raidou, 2 what can be considered as elite jounin.

That's crap, because that would imply that the Genin who went one on one with sound 4 were near Jounin level to beat them.

I think we are falling in to the trap of DBZ power levels here... that the person with the highest power level will win the battle. If someone is complacent or outnumbered they could still lose, despite individually being of higher quality than their opponents.

E.g. Naruto Vs Kabuto... Man Kabuto could have killed Naruto if he took him seriously, yet he ended up being battered half to death due to his own complacency.

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Originally Posted by RyougaZell

False. The Sound Four were Chuunin Level. Kimimaro probably was Jounin level though

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I never said anything for or against them being Jounin. I said unless they were. My entire statement assumed they were not.

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Originally Posted by RyougaZell

ANBU's aren't useless. They are simply ignored by Kishimoto. Its like saying every other nameless genin/chuunin/jounin/tokubetsu jounin are useless because they do not appear

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Well, I suppose it is all hypothetical. How do we know if they are useful or not if the author ignores them?

It just seems logical to me that if he ignores them then they must not be that important. Maybe they are still useful, as behind-the-scenes sort of ninjas.

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Originally Posted by DB_Hunter

think we are falling in to the trap of DBZ power levels here... that the person with the highest power level will win the battle. If someone is complacent or outnumbered they could still lose, despite individually being of higher quality than their opponents.

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I couldn't agree more. Winning a high level ninja battle requires more than just physical power, or even jutsu power. Strategy and decisiveness are also huge factors.

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Originally Posted by darkshadow

The sound 4 were jounin level in their curse seal lvl2 state, they managed to beat genma and raidou, 2 what can be considered as elite jounin.

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I don't agree with your assesment of Genma and Raidou's skills. If they were elite Jounin, the battle against the sound-nin would have gone differently. I would put Kakashi and Gai in the "elite-jounin" category, and also Asuma. We haven't really seen very many other Jounin yet, so I may be way off on my placement of their skills.

That sounds about right. Spider guy wasn't Jounin level, but the others maybe. Flute girl was taken out by fan girl after being weakened by Shikamaru. The twins were taken out by 2 people as well. Chouji had to go Super Saiyan to kill fatboy.

Hmm... what happened to my post in response to bud? It had a very good twist. =p

Here it is again:
What if Naruto kills Itachi and rubs it in Sasuke's face? What then?

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Originally Posted by Narasho

It just seems logical to me that if he ignores them then they must not be that important. Maybe they are still useful, as behind-the-scenes sort of ninjas.

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I think RyougaZell meant "useless" in terms of skill level, not importance to the story.

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Originally Posted by XanBcoo

I think RyougaZell meant "useless" in terms of skill level, not importance to the story.

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That's how I took it too. My whole thing on importance was meant to be a side point, though I admit I wasn't clear in separating my ideas.

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Originally Posted by Narasho

I don't agree with your assesment of Genma and Raidou's skills. If they were elite Jounin, the battle against the sound-nin would have gone differently. I would put Kakashi and Gai in the "elite-jounin" category, and also Asuma. We haven't really seen very many other Jounin yet, so I may be way off on my placement of their skills.

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Raidou and Genma both seem highly respectable within the ranks in Konoha, and they even offered to go chase down the Sound 4 a second time after they recovered in the hospital, admitting that they only lost because they were caught off-guard by the enemy.

Damn guys, 2 more days till the next episode. ARE U PUMPED?

The sound 4 guys in cursed stage 2 are jounin lvl. They beat genma and the other guy (for got his name) because they where weekened from comeing back from amission. But in fighting the two elite jounin the sound 4 became weak as well so in turn giving the konoha genin (which are more powerful then usual genin I:E byakkugan/most talented hyugga ever, kyubbi power, steroids pills & one of the smartest characters in the naruto universe) a better chance at victory. Note i didnt mention kiba because he would have been finished if it wasn't for konkaru. Shika would have lost also but he still did his shit in out smarting that chick.

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Originally Posted by Budweineken

What if goes out jogging one night and a toad pisses on his feet and he slips breaking his neck? Then what?

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His sharingan can see the toad pissing and he will dodge it so fast nobody can even see it.

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Originally Posted by JaySee

That sounds about right. Spider guy wasn't Jounin level, but the others maybe. Flute girl was taken out by fan girl after being weakened by Shikamaru. The twins were taken out by 2 people as well. Chouji had to go Super Saiyan to kill fatboy.

Hmm... what happened to my post in response to bud? It had a very good twist. =p

Here it is again:
What if Naruto kills Itachi and rubs it in Sasuke's face? What then?

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if tayuya, sudon/ukon and jirobou are jounin level why you dont think kidimouro (spider guy) is as well?

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Originally Posted by JaySee

That sounds about right. Spider guy wasn't Jounin level, but the others maybe. Flute girl was taken out by fan girl after being weakened by Shikamaru. The twins were taken out by 2 people as well. Chouji had to go Super Saiyan to kill fatboy.

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Kidomouro fought against Neji, who was the strongest of the Genin team, and barely lost. (if that, it was a pyrrhic victory at best for Neji) I would put him as the strongest of the Sound Four - though Sakon and Ukon may be stronger, the fat guy and that girl are alot weaker in my estimation.

Not only did Genma and radou comment that they were defeated cause they were caught off guard, but the sound 4 mentioned aswell that if they didn't turn on the lvl2 seal, they would've lost.

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Originally Posted by Narasho

Well, I suppose it is all hypothetical. How do we know if they are useful or not if the author ignores them?

It just seems logical to me that if he ignores them then they must not be that important. Maybe they are still useful, as behind-the-scenes sort of ninjas.

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If he ignores them, it simply means they are not relavent to the story line. It doesn't imply that they are useless as ninja's.


Anyway, as for htis whole ANBU debate, this is how i see it:

chuunins --> security guards (not literally, but as a comparison)
jounins --> police
ANBU --> SWAT Team

In order to be part of the swat team you have to be a police officer, and not all police officers have what it takes to be part of the swat team. however, not every badass cop is required to join the swat team either.

Same thing with ANBU. to be part of the anbu squad, you must be a jounin. not every elite jounin (asuma or gai for example) has to be part of the anbu, but every anbu is probably an elite jounin (though not at the same level as kakashi/gai/asuma obviously)

Spider-boy was more of a strategic fighter like Shikamaru than a powerful one. I guess you could rank him up there at Jounin level for his skill and strategy.

yeah... but i dont think hes a Jounin Level... remember that they had to use thier lv. 2 curse seals just to fight two jounins who just came from a mission... he might fought well against Neji but thats because he got a curse seal.. if it wasnt for the curse seal i dont think theyd win against those two jounins. i think it would be a different story if the sound 4 were up against ANBU ....

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Originally Posted by Assassin

Anyway, as for htis whole ANBU debate, this is how i see it:

chuunins --> security guards (not literally, but as a comparison)
jounins --> police
ANBU --> SWAT Team

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Just to make an amendment to your analogy, I think it goes more like this:

Genin --> security guards
Chuunin and average Jounin --> police
"Elite" Jounin --> FBI
ANBU --> SWAT Team

Considering how many Genin were not able to pass the Chuunin exam, I would imagine it's even harder to achieve Jounin rank. Genins handle basic stuff, Chuunin are stronger and have more responsibility, and are Jounin even stronger still. The unofficial rank of "Elite Jounin" is attributed to a handful of S-class ninja, and the ANBU are as you said, specialized.

As for the sound 4, the databook says they're Chuunin rank, but I take that with a grain of salt considering how they performed in their respective fights. In the end, though, I wouldn't lose any sleep over the issue. They're dead and it's a Shounen anime. Power levels over 9000, etc etc.

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Originally Posted by Assassin

chuunins --> security guards (not literally, but as a comparison)
jounins --> police
ANBU --> SWAT Team

In order to be part of the swat team you have to be a police officer, and not all police officers have what it takes to be part of the swat team. however, not every badass cop is required to join the swat team either.

Same thing with ANBU. to be part of the anbu squad, you must be a jounin. not every elite jounin (asuma or gai for example) has to be part of the anbu, but every anbu is probably an elite jounin (though not at the same level as kakashi/gai/asuma obviously)

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I don't think it's necessary to be jounin to be an ANBU member. Most likely chuunin. ANBU seems to be a special unit operating in Konoha and nearby, in teams. People sent out of the village for various A or B class missions are facing far more dangerous tasks, like fighting S-class criminals alone or infiltrating enemy villages. ANBU members might need to be good, but not that good because they always have plenty of support nearby.

Also, if ANBU is tasked for finding and detaining enemy ninjas, own traitors, and other such nuisances, then they deal with the hardest domestic tasks. That would certainly allow the regular police to be far more relaxed duty, and I don't see why they would need to be jounin level. Even reliable genin fellows should suffice to deal with drunkards, thieves, muggers and such.

First of all, it's been stated officially in one of the databooks that the sound 4 were all chuunins and Kimimaru was a jounin.

Second, Jounin are higher than ANBU. Most anbu are chuunin.

ANBU can't be counted on the 'normal' scale of genin - chuunin - jounin / tokubetsu jounin.

Like DarthEnder posted before, you don't need to be a Jounin, but I think they need to be at least Chuunin to enter.

Kakashi didn't go 'down' a rank when he quit ANBU.
Itachi most likely was selected because he, like Kakashi, were prodigy (sp?)

Anyway... in the end rank is just that... a rank... something used to determine what kind of missions are given to you and how you are paid.

Remember Haku for example? He was far above genin level... and most likely he wasn't even a genin. The Sound Four / Five most likely were genins, with chuunin level, or jounin in Kimimaro's case. How come? Unless they were deserters from other villages... Sound never had the chance to 'graduate' chuunins officially, since they were a new village. Unless you can become a Chuunin some other way apart from the exams... I mean... how many entered last one? and how many were 'graduated'? Just One.