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He asked for a small/private party, but she said everyone would be there... only to actually have a one-on-one (maybe Touma may have turned up, but I only remember seeing 2 plates). He'd be surprised that it was a private party after all, but that's only a happy surprise because she tricked him and turned down his original request in the first place. That makes the expectation for a large party artificial, and a relative disappointment.Quote:
Originally Posted by shinta|hikari
The setup was for a pleasant surprise, like pretending that you forgot someone's birthday (therefore lowering their expectations), then throwing a surprise party (thus taking advantage of the lowered expectations giving greater happiness and satisfaction). This is also in effect when people give fake crappy initial gifts only to follow up with something much more valuable.
I suppose. I was ticked off because he specifically requested something and got declined.. only to get it back.
No, I'm ticked off too. It's just like Setsuna to plan something like this. And it backfired on her again.
Really? I never really thought of Setsuna as being manipulative, and I thought this was out of character. She can act sweet and set up surprises, but I never expected her to do so by saying "No" to a request.
I think "timing" a confession right is something anyone with a few brain cells would try to do. Her wish to keep the three of them together was.. inconsiderate, but it wasn't calculated IMO (she wasn't thinking "Touma can't decline me if I play xyz card").
What other things lead you to think so (relative to my views) badly of Setsuna?
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edit: Actually.. after some thought.. Setsuna from this episode vs my image of her is only one step apart. It might be a fairly significant difference for me but in the grand scheme of things it's not unlike her.
edit2: I just thought of how I wanted to express this: The main issue I had here was that Setsuna denied an earnest request from Haruki which left him pretty depressed. The seriousness of his idea being shot down due to playful antics was what made me think Setsuna took things too far this episode. And I agree with your last part - it's backfiring now.
Granted, I can't hate her entirely for it either. She sacrificed a fair bit on her end, declining (their last?) family outing together and all.
We have lots of hints of her manipulation. Even her declaration of her love for Haruki to Touma, the confession right after the live, her apology to Touma (making Touma pull back and give up), calling Touma her best friend (this was really unnatural. Touma does not treat anyone well enough to make them think they are best friends), meeting Haruki behind Touma's back, the hot spring trip that was designed to keep the 3 of them together, and now this birthday plan all point towards that.
This was definitely not out of character. She, from the very beginning, admitted that she shows a fake self in front of others and acts nice as if it were nothing (scene at the park with Haruki). She is a talented actress, and knows how to get on people's good side. There is something underneath what you see, even if it is not explicitly shown in the show, and I believe this is part of what makes WA2 great. It has depth.
She isn't a criminal mastermind or anything. It's just that compared to the other two, her plans and actions have influenced the situation (and the others' behavior) far more than the others.
Well.. I suppose if you're equating influence with manipulation then Setsuna's really got a hand on top of the other two. (PS: made an edit2 to the previous post while you posted)Quote:
Originally Posted by shinta|hikari
This is reminding me of a certain character in Magi (really tempted to just say it since no one else is here anyway...) [highlight: how can you not be like that if you're smart enough to see the situation and see the true value of things? -Sinbad]
her declaration of her love for Haruki to Touma, her apology to Touma - I really do think that's more about playing fair. She was bringing Touma's feelings out as well at the restaurant. If anything she knew Touma liked Haruki and wanted to play fair. After she told Touma her feelings, both girls knew they both liked Haruki. Confessing after the live was the best thing for any of them to confess so their feelings wouldn't distract from their preparation/performance. The apology was because Touma backed down for her (even though she didn't ask for it).
I really think she'd feel a lot better if Touma declared her feelings for Haruki as well, because then she wouldn't be all guilty. That's a really defining point for me. If the opposite was true I'd totally put her in the manipulation camp.
The hot spring plan was just a good-willed wish (both her and Haruki wanted that, neither of them realised how hurt Touma actually was.) Both of them saw Touma as a very good friend as well, so that's the one part I completely can't agree with you on.
Setsuna's is more perceptive and has more initiative than the other two (I actually fault the other two on this). Influencial.. yeah, on a relative scale. Up until this birthday thing (perhaps even now) I still admire her overall compared to the other two for knowing what she wants, being honest with herself and taking actions to realise it. Her considerations for the other two have been more than satisfactory*.
* excepting the birthday thing towards Haruki. That.. wasn't so satisfactory.
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Are you able to describe why the closing part for WA2 is so highly rated (without spoiling)? I'm really curious about what becomes of this triangle but I'm not too confident that this will get a further adaptation.
There are 3 other heroines in the college stage and each of their paths are great and unique.
Other than that, there is the main girls' paths that continues to working age. Everything is well written, and you get attached to all the characters, even those you hate.
As an interesting side note, Setsuna's true happy end is my favorite ending, as much as I would hate to admit it.
The apology was because she confessed first and succeeded. I think she actually said something like taking/stealing Haruki away from Touma in that scene.
I'm pretty sure Setsuna knows that Touma is getting hurt, even if that is not to the extent of making her leave the country. Setsuna is not evil, but she is far from being as straightforward and nice as she seems. Just because you are doing something with a main motive, does not mean you do not have underlying intentions or other advantageous side effects you are aware off.
In terms of admiration, I would say I admire Setsuna the most among the three. She is the smartest, and played her hand in the best possible way. She tried to get a happy ending where there was none. However, I can empathize a lot more with Haruki (because we are similar) and Touma (because she is my waifu). I dislike Setsuna's ability to act nice and cute (something she admits to doing). I don't like characters who act kind and achieve results but are not so much on the inside.
I think I share more of Buffalobiian view on Setsuna, manipulative feels like abit too strong of a word to describe her if nothing else because it has more of a negative connotation at least for me. Though thinking about it her actions does give mixed feelings, the fact that she honestly told Touma her feelings and tried to get Touma to admit her feelings could be seen as one of the best possible action depending on how Touma would react. But her calling Touma a friend all the time and going as far as calling Touma her best friend makes it hard for Touma to admit those feelings since she seem to treasure Setsuna as a friend as well. Anyway the point is if that's why Setsuna told Touma about her feelings because she was aiming for that outcome then yes I could see her as manipulative but otherwise no.
But otherwise the one that has been flaunting the relationship the most is Haruki. Setsuna hasn't really gotten that cozy with Haruki while Touma has been around and seems to want to keep things on the friendly level when all three are together, instead it's Haruki that initiates all the skinship. Then again it's understandable that he does.
Also I'd say the underlying motive is that she doesn't want a repeat of what happened with her other friends since that seemed to have left her quite hurt and scarred, perhaps that's why she's as perceptive as she is.
You hit the nail right on the head with this one.Quote:
Originally Posted by fireheart
HS - Episode 11
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Kitahara Haruki. I want to punch that guy SO badly. Touma was right that it's her personal choices which let things slip away, but Haruki double-dipping is by far the worst contribution to this shit.
So Setsuna saw Touma kiss Haruki after the live, which made her decide to take the initiative and risk the kiss confession. The risk didn't pay off, and now she is about to face the losses.
Haruki's only way to fix this would be to beg for forgiveness from Setsuna (not expecting to get it) then break up with her, then chase Touma to wherever. He's smart, so he can probably manage that.
I find it interesting that Touma's reason for slapping Haruki was not about guilt towards Setsuna, but jealousy from all the kissing that Haruki did with her. She really is a selfish brat.
There were some parts in the VN extra that these 2 episodes covered that didn't make it into the anime due to time constraints. The flashback has already ended so this isn't really a spoiler but supplementary information, but I wanted to add this here to flesh out Touma a bit more. It might have been implied in the anime, but it was not explained.
Spoiler:
All the instruments in the music room Touma uses is hers (her mother's). She brought all of them in and learned them in an amazingly short amount of time just to guide Haruki indirectly like she did with the piano. She never got the chance because of the events in the 1st episode.
It was Haruki's decision to make Touma use all of those instruments in the live to show the world how awesome she is, not knowing all of that skill was developed for his sake.
When Haruki gave Touma the book, he told her that he did not have time to practice because of exams, and Touma was disappointed. This gives a new twist to the scene this episode where Touma commented that Haruki got better after hearing his playing, because Haruki was lying about skipping practice. He was practicing his ass off, from about an hour in the past to 10 hours a day (like Touma half seriously suggested) likely to please Touma because he was never into music in the first place.
There was also a note inside the book which was only discovered after Touma found the book again, making all her effort finding it worth it. The content of the note was what he said directly to Touma when he handed off the book in the anime. The difference is that Haruki is a lot more shy and indirect when expressing his feelings towards Touma in the VN extra, and that scene was pretty touching.
I'm... not sure how to read this. On one hand I see what you mean by "risk". On the other hand though, it gives it a bad tone as if she shouldn't have done or, or that she's now reaping what she sowed. The matter would have been simple if Haruki decided upon what he really wanted to do (and not just take what he can get). His pulling out here is what's causing a problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by shinta
I still want to punch him for it.
If Setsuna "saw this coming", then that would mean she saw Haruki as a potential cheater. If I was in her shoes, I would have wanted (and chosen) to believe that my boyfriend was honest and sincere too.
Touma really is a sweet girl. I feel bad for her being caught up in this too. Sure, part of it is due to her stubbonness, but... fucking Haruki. I'm not sure that Touma slapped Haruki entirely out of jealousy. I think a lot of it was due to her realising how many times Haruki must have killsed Setsuna to be so well-practiced, which reflected how far the two's relationship has gone. I think the fact that Haruki will so readily kiss her (Touma) despite that angers her more than "How dare you kiss Setsuna so much". It wasn't the first thing that came to my mind.
The slap I'm pretty sure was out of jealousy. If it had been the reason you stated, she would not have worded it that way. She would have said something along the lines of "How can you kiss me bla bla" or "I can't do this because of Setsuna bla bla."
Saying "How many times have you kissed Setsuna!?" indicates that the problem lies in "kissing Setsuna", not the current kiss, which she was happily enjoying until Haruki went all tongue master on her. Guilt would not have necessitated many kisses or even one. Guilt should exist because Haruki and Setsuna are in a relationship, (and they are cheating) regardless of how developed that is. Jealousy on the other hand, directly increases with the amount of closeness the two have, which I believe was reflected in her outburst.
I don't think Setsuna saw this coming to this detail. Of course she didn't think Haruki would cheat (and I am willing to bet the characters in the show and the audience didn't really think so either), but she had to know that the chances of their relationship going well when she knows her boyfriend and best friend are in love with each other is pretty bad. That probability simply came true in the worst form possible.
Setsuna confirmed that Touma loves Haruki (a lot) when she saw that sleeping kiss. Remember how she acted when she wanted to get permission from Touma? She acted like she was unsure of how Touma felt, and that she was convinced that they (the 3) were going to be fine when Touma said so. She did all that, knowing how deeply Touma felt, and how clumsy she is in being unable to express that. How can she even think that it is going to work out after seeing that kiss?
Finale
I am quite happy with this adaptation. It was quite accurate and had most of the important stuff in there. Seeing Touma moving around made this worth watching. Since they kept the cliffhanger ending the introductory chapter had, I am hoping there is a plan to create a sequel.
@Buff - Why isn't anyone watching this here? It might have rage inducing moments, but overall it is a very solid story with great characters and dialog.
I can answer that, without having watched any of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by shinta|hikari
(Why am I in the thread today in the first place? To see if it is just you and Buff posting. Thankfully not.)
White Album was pretty good. But then White Album 2nd Season was shit.
Tears to Tiara was bland as hell. To Heart 2 INFINITUM...no thanks. Needless to say, there's no way I'm watching something else from them. Utawarerumono is the only good thing Aquaplus has done. All they've done since then has been one disappointment after another. Maybe White Album 2 is the exception...but I'm sure as hell not taking that chance.
Why is no one watching it? Because it is titled White Album.
Try one or two episodes at least.
Finally watched the final episodes... not sure how I feel about it. Can't say what I expected from the ending of the show, sure there was bound to be drama and angst that was a given since it's a love triangle but still... it just felt way to incomplete. And I'm pretty disappointed in Haruki, sure almost all the drama wouldn't have happened without him but wished he acted more like he did at the start of the show and didn't go 100% angsty.
On the bright side I'll watch the continuation if they animate it, if not I'll play the VN if they translate it if nothing because I need more of complete ending than what this gave.
This really isn't a complete story with just that. It is simply a prologue of the actual story.
Yep, I'm with Ryll, the name White Album is pretty off-putting if it makes you think about the previous anime. I never watched the 2nd season so perhaps that explains why I'm still here.
The ending was rage-inducing. If Kazusa/Haruki want to kick things off, do it after you conclude things with Setsuna. The actual love isn't a problem, it's the overlap of responsibilities/feelings/promises between everybody that is screwing this up. This mess actually highlights one outlook I have about interacting with people: act in your own interest. [I]Consider[I/] other people's and balance the two, but never let the other override your own.
I would definitely be interested in WA2, season 2.. but I'm also afraid since I know they need to choose only one route.. and once that route becomes obvious the ultimate outcome would be too (unless they choose a bad end to that route?)