Claymore

Hmm... That could be true, yes. Well, that does change two things: Awakened beings are more dangerous in the beginning but due to an inability to develop, they remain as they are and grant better chances for the Claymores facing them as time goes by.

Still, it would certainly mean, then, that Clare and Irene would face harder times when Ophelia finds them. However, if they survive the initial clash there's little to worry about later. In fact, now that I think of it, you're stance is more likely. The male Awakened pretty much owned in the beginning of the fight against the Claymores, but it couldn't adapt at all nearing the end when Clare and Miria got their act together.

Ah, well, I have to give in that much. Although it only reinforces my other point: That Awakened beings are beasts; once you get to know how they think (or just act according to their instincts) you are already halfway to the victory.

sorry, comp, I just don't see it... I'm sure it's feasible that there's a time when a freshly Awakanened is in despair and loses her cool, making her less effective, but that doesn't NEED to be. Priscilla suddenly started crying, as did Ophelia, but that was a very good battle strategy for one, while the other wasn't fighting (though it wouldn't have worked on Clare).

The potential flaw in your graph is that you accredit Awakening to an increase in Yoki that actually doesn't increase combat effectiveness, despite a linear relationship between Yoki level and effectiveness up to that point. The flash of light, notable physical distortion and shock of onlookers has pointed to the idea that Awakening increases your Yoki by a sudden and great amount. The result would be a 'range' of 'combat effectiveness' that a freshly Awakened Being would fall into depending on how well she could utilize this power straight from the start.

There's also the idea that a lack of morals / attainment of evil can empower the fighter, even if they aren't adjusted to using all of their newly gained powers.

Again, it all depends on how Yoki is effectively utilized to achieve this so called 'combat effectivness'. Clare, who has a terrible rank in the organization and a very small Yoki, manages to utilize it very well, effectively trumping opponents with much higher Yoki. Not all Claymore have the same linear combat effectivness to Yoki relationship.

And, the idea of measuring all Claymore by a chart also fails to account for the effectiveness of Yoki reading, which Clare and others excel at. In such a case, an opponent's effectiveness might go DOWN against a Yoki reader because their Yoki is going up and making their attacks more visible. It also leaves out situational elements like a pre-existing relationship with the opponent (Teresa and Priscilla), terrain, fatigue, knowledge of the others' abilities and many more things that you'd have to keep in mind to determine 'combat effectiveness' which can really only be evaluated on a case-by-base, opponent-by-opponent basis.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by shinta|hikari

BTW, its interesting to know some details about the creation of claymores, but the actual process still remains a mystery I guess.

---

I'd say that the process is sort of fusion, the blood get fused(not sure that's even a word)in the same way that you clean your blood in the hospital, except instead of getting your own purified blood back you get yoma blood.
And like mentioned before, maybe they somehow transplant some yoma organs or so in the stomach (seeing the bandits reaction to teresa) but then again, a blow to the stomach region should destroy that part of the yoma power. I know I'm ripping up old discussions so sorry.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by masamuneehs

sorry, comp, I just don't see it... I'm sure it's feasible that there's a time when a freshly Awakanened is in despair and loses her cool, making her less effective, but that doesn't NEED to be. Priscilla suddenly started crying, as did Ophelia, but that was a very good battle strategy for one, while the other wasn't fighting (though it wouldn't have worked on Clare).

---

It was an effective strategy for Priscilla against a merciful opponent. Not so much against a merciless one. Remembering that most claymores are, in fact, pretty much merciless, I don't see this as being a sound strategy in general.

Quote:

---

The potential flaw in your graph is that you accredit Awakening to an increase in Yoki that actually doesn't increase combat effectiveness

---

No, there's a gap between the "point of no return" and actual transformation, during which inhibitions and humanity erode. If a claymore were to embrace that she was going to awaken and power through it uninhibited, then this dropoff wouldn't happen.

The power drop I'm suggesting is a function not of actual yoki emitted, nor of actual strength, but of psychology and training. Once the claymore has fully awakened, there's no more inhibitions or training getting in the way, and she'll be able to fully utilize her powers.

Quote:

---

And, the idea of measuring all Claymore by a chart also fails to account for the effectiveness of Yoki reading, which Clare and others excel at.

---

IT'S OVER 9000!
But seriously, yes, I agree. There's no good way to numerically compare combat abilities. That's what's interesting about shounen action as a genre: weaker opponents can muster unexpected strength or skill and defeat stronger opponents.

Clare's ability to read yoki is comparable to Jujitsu -- the more power (as yoki) you send at her, the more effective she is at turning that power aside or against you, up to the point that she can't keep up with your movements, at least. But in a competition of brute strength -- in Teresa versus Priscilla, or Irene versus Ophelia, or Clare versus any ordinary yoma she's faced before, more yoki released = more effective.

In other words, this is a graph not of how good a given claymore is in comparison to other claymores, but how good she is in comparison to herself. I think that's still within the realm of the meaningful.

14 with some one-armed fetish:
http://torrents.no-sekai.de/eclipse/...5d.mkv.torrent

Thanks Munsu! :)

Well, it didn't end up being Clare's optimal technique. Perhaps she will find another, more suitable one at some point. Even though Irene isn't going to need her hand back anymore.

But nevertheless, even without being optimal, it's still easily at a level that will grant her better chances against any opponent.

I don't think the Clare would be able to create her own technique, being weak and all. I guess its best for Clare to further improve the skills she has now (flash sword and yoki reading) to make it more effective, its a better lead than starting at zero with a new technique.

That might be so. But it would also be a weakness to have only one good technique. If the opponent happens to know how to deal with that attack, then she would be at that zero point no matter what, because according to Irene she won't ever be extremely good at the Flash sword, thus creating a vulnerability.

I didnt really like that episode. It made so many things seem strange. Ive already noted earlier that transforming into an awakened being will automatically make you evil (as seen in Priscilla's case). In the case of Ophelia, this does not seem to be the so. It actually seemed like most of her personality remained (considering how twisted she originally was), and was even a better person than when she was a claymore.

I also didnt like how Ophelia noted that Clare's strength and speed have both increased even when she wasnt using the flash sword. It just seemed like too traditional a path to increase all parameters and level up after a training session.

The use of flash sword in that battle was idiotic. She used it as a grinder? What the hell happened to the brains in this show. Clare didnt seem as stupid before. I know its because of Clare continuing Ophelia's will and all that bullshit considering they have the same enemy, but I would have hoped that she has learned from Teresa's example not to be fooled by youma-talk (since she hasnt fallen for it since the beginning of the series, and now this?) Ive never really seen a hero cheered on by her opponent before, and it didnt really look right at all.

But the thing Im most pissed about is how Raki didnt appear in her head when she was remembering the things/people she would leave behind if she died, the poor guy.

Next episode.
Clare : The Composite Claymore I

Seriously, they gonna just mix every best claymore inside Clare to turn her into a super claymore ?

The grinder thing as you said was really idiotic.. Clare could already killed Ophelia at the early part of the battle. The time where she cut off both arms and went for the body, Why did she not cut Ophelia's head off? instead just slashing her body. Clearly Ophelia was suprise and caught off guard.. Clare could have finish her sooner..:D Kinda sad that Raki's face did not show up..

Clare used the flash sword as a "grinder", because she wanted to beat Ophelia by her rules. Clare respected Ophelia (as another warrior) and she also understands that Ophelia didn't choose to be an awakened being, like any other Claymore. And the fact that Ophelia spoke to Clare in her "human" form means that Clare wouldn't do anything despicable like aiming directly at her tail. I don't really see it as sympathy, but just Clare giving Oheplia the respect she deserves, as a Claymore.

Wow, you guys are really dismissing everything that has happened in the series to Clare till now. You guys are missing the point that by having Raki by her side in her journey, she has become more "human" and that's what has ultimately prevented her from fully awekening. Of course, that in itself has some counter-effects. She becomes more sympathetic towards other characters for starters.

Second, she wasn't remembering poeple she would leave behind if she died... she was thinking if she was fit to take revenge for Teresa and carry her flesh and blood, as it was pointed out earlier by Irene. She was also thinking about she being the one that survived Teresa. You can also see it parallel to Raki, in that she didn't want to put him in the same position she was in her flashback, so I don't see the problem of them not showing Raki.

Third, since the start of the series there has been an underlying theme that Claymores want to die as humans, and other Claymores are sympathetic to letting them have that dying wish, so not only was Clare probably thinking of taking on Ophellias will, but also giving her the chance to die human, by completely destroying the yoma portion. She probably read between the lines and thought that Ophellia had already surrendered, so didn't really think about the dangers of doing what she did.

And becoming Awakened automatically not making you evil is a bad thing? Please, character and story complexity is never a bad thing. You seem to want a simple hack and slash series with no dilemmas and one dimensional characters.

I never said not becoming evil when you become an awakened is a bad thing. It just seemed strange since it was not consistent with the case of Priscilla.

Irene's face popped up at that time too. It isnt so unreasonable to think of the person that actually prevented you from becoming an awakened being (actually turning her into a half-awakened and consequently more powerful) at one time. And I think Ophelia was saying that Clare should think about the ones she will leave behind, and that is what caused the flashback (EDIT - the second one, after which she cut the tentacles and proceeded grinding).

Uh, awakened beings arent supposed to die as humans, since they arent human nor even claymores anymore. I am not dismissing anything that has happened before. I think you are missing the point of the earlier posts. Youmas and awakened beings are known to be treacherous, and Clare should know this most of all. It doesnt matter if claymores want to die as humans or if Clare has become more human and symphatetic to others. Its just common sense to eliminate the enemy as efficiently as possible, especially since it is an awakened being, or risk the chance of dying like Teresa.

Im not saying Clare should be less symphatetic or colder, but as the situation was, there really was no room nor reason for such things, also in consideration of her past experiences.

It is precisely the turn of events that made this episode a hack and slash one for me. As oyabin earlier stated, with the flash sword, she could have sliced Ophelia's head off instead of scratching her body parts like she did. Why? No real reason, except because there needs to be more action inserted (yes, typical of hack and slash shows).

Dilemmas are good if they are properly delivered. There was simply no indication that awakened beings can actually hold a human-like consciousness. If there was, everyone would have complained at my claim that turning youma automatically turns you evil. Im not saying the idea itself is bad. Im saying the way it was presented was too sudden, making it feel fake.

Read between the lines? Are you kidding? The succeeding the will thus fighting on a set rule theory makes sense, though cheap sense since claymore isnt really a kiddy shounen morals show. That scenario of Clare thinking Ophelia has given up is absolutely stupid, and if she did think that, she deserves to die. Even Ophelia notes how stupids she is, and stabs her for it. If Ophelia hadnt cheered Clare on, she would be dead (which I still find to be strange and too sudden).

When watching that scene, I got the feeling Ophelia suggested that if Clare can't proceed through her whole body, she isn't strong enough to ever face Priscilla. And Clare did that just to prove it to herself, not Ophelia. When she got tired in the middle, Ophelia stabbed her partly to show she was right: Clare doesn't have the power, and partly to encourage her forward. Though I'm not entirely sure if Ophelia wanted Clare to exceed her limits as well, sharing the fate of turning into a yoma, or really succeed and release Ophelia from that ill fate.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by shinta|hikari

I never said not becoming evil when you become an awakened is a bad thing. It just seemed strange since it was not consistent with the case of Priscilla

---

Yeah, but this was the first thing you posted when you said you didn't like the episode, so it can be easilly understood that you think it's a bad turn on events. You also need to understand that no one in this show has been shown to detest Awakened beings more than Ophellia, and you need to take that into consideration after she was shocked after seeing her reflection. So it's not really strange.

Quote:

---

Irene's face popped up at that time too. It isnt so unreasonable to think of the person that actually prevented you from becoming an awakened being (actually turning her into a half-awakened and consequently more powerful) at one time. And I think Ophelia was saying that Clare should think about the ones she will leave behind, and that is what caused the flashback (EDIT - the second one, after which she cut the tentacles and proceeded grinding).

---

I was editing my post while you posted, so you probably missed it. But she was thinking more of how she was the one that survived Teresa, and if she's worthy of carrying her blood and flesh... again, that's the whole point of this episode, she making good by Teresa as Irene had pointed out earlier on the importance of she having Teresa's flesh in her etc.

Now, if we saw more flashbacks, even ones showing Raki I can already see you guys posting "Damnit, what a horrible episode, it was all flashbacks". Simply draw a parallel with the situation she was in when she was little and with Raki currently, that should be enough.

Quote:

---

Uh, awakened beings arent supposed to die as humans, since they arent human nor even claymores anymore. I am not dismissing anything that has happened before. I think you are missing the point of the earlier posts. Youmas and awakened beings are known to be treacherous, and Clare should know this most of all. It doesnt matter if claymores want to die as humans or if Clare has become more human and symphatetic to others. Its just common sense to eliminate the enemy as efficiently as possible, especially since it is an awakened being, or risk the chance of dying like Teresa.

---

Quote:

---

Dilemmas are good if they are properly delivered. There was simply no indication that awakened beings can actually hold a human-like consciousness. If there was, everyone would have complained at my claim that turning youma automatically turns you evil. Im not saying the idea itself is bad. Im saying the way it was presented was too sudden, making it feel fake.

---

Sorry, but as it has been portrayed many times before, these Claymores are very frail girls with tragic pasts. They have real sense of comradery, especially preventing other Claymores from dying as Yomas. Hence the importance of the second episode. All we know about Awakened beings has to be taken as grains of salt, none can be taken as absolute truths because the information we have gathered are from unreliable sources or sources that really don't know much. So if Clare saw that Ophellia still had some humanity in her, there's no reason for her not to try and save it.

I just think you dislike the anime throwing out all your previous theories. It surprised you, and it pisses you off.

Quote:

---

Read between the lines? Are you kidding? The succeeding the will thus fighting on a set rule theory makes sense, though cheap sense since claymore isnt really a kiddy shounen morals show. That scenario of Clare thinking Ophelia has given up is absolutely stupid, and if she did think that, she deserves to die. Even Ophelia notes how stupids she is, and stabs her for it. If Ophelia hadnt cheered Clare on, she would be dead (which I still find to be strange and too sudden).

---

You answered it yourself. Yes it was stupid, and the series itself aknowledges it. Clare has been shown to be very irrational in the past, so there's no real surprise here.

This episode was really good, and opened many new doors but you guys only notice the "bad" things from the episode. Heck, we saw a new character called Rafaela who was ranked 5, and Irene said that she probably couldn't beat her even with both her arms. So what's the deal with her?

Ophelia's boobies are $$ :)

You assumed I was saying it was a bad thing, I didnt.

Flashbacks dont need to be long, just enough to show he is part of it, like a 1 second flash of his face? (this is no big deal really, I commented on this because I pitied Raki, not really because it was a bad thing in terms of story, but saying a 1-3 second showing of Raki's face will invite criticism for excessive flashbacks? LOL)

There are tons of reasons (Umm, like how Teresa, the most important person to her, died?) to not try and save it (Ophelia's humanity), and that was my point. But then again, as you said, Clare isnt really rational, and thus my complaints.

Whether Im surprised or not, or whether my predictions are correct or not do not matter. What I was emphasizing if you read between the lines is that the delivery was lacking, not the actual plot direction itself. It was too sudden, not surprising, and there is a big difference.

What I meant in the last part is that Clare couldnt have thought that Ophelia was giving up, but rather thought of it as a challenge that she needs to overcome to succeed her will. The first possibility which you proposed is preposterous, since Clare isnt that much of a fool (or any other character for that matter).

Actually, what Ophelia did was a very good strategy since Clare cannot use flash sword for a long time, its just that she had failed to complete it by killing Clare off.

EDIT - Still, I was amazed at how you said I was pissed off at surprises (wow how did you conclude that), since that is the farthest from the truth. Im not sure if its an attempt at taunting me, but really... LOL.

I realize now that all I was hoping for was for Clare to be a smart character, for I actually thought that she was from the previous episodes (with all the planning etc.), but it seems some prefer to think of her as stupid, and if that is so, this episode isnt so bad.

I was sort of hoping Clare would get Irene's arm in a different way, but that is good enough I guess.

As for why Rafaela is only #5? I'm going to guess it's probably because she has only 1 eye. I wonder if she will kill Irene though.

As for cutting Ophelia up, how come she just didn't slice it off piece by piece? lol... It seems to use up so much more strength doing the flash sword repeatedly...

Anyways, this series is getting better and better.