Naruto Shippuuden Episode 84

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Originally Posted by ASSpirine

I really can't remember when they said that...
And comparing to Naruto isn't fair ;)

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I want to say it was just before the Deidara fight but I'm not exactly sure. However he is correct.

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there was something about the Jounin exam before. it would f been in the filler most likely. or an OVA.. Maybe it was in the red leaf clover ova? that's what I seem to be thinking.. anyways, there's like flash backs and stuff to when Iruka took it. something like that..

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If it happened it was filler so it isn't that useful of information. :)

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Also, I'm wondering how one is promoted to Jounin, Chuunins we saw.

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I assume you mean how these three are not Jounin? If not Neji made it to Jounin. The rest seem to not be near that level, remember Kakashi said that Jounin generally have control over at least 2 (I think it was 2, if nothing else at least 1) elemental type. Which bodes well for the next time we see Neji. :D

What Jounin exam? There is no Jounin exam and the idea of an exam to become a jounin is really stupid. Firstly it wouldn't be some genin kids taking the exam and I'm absolutely sure no village would be pulling their chunins off of missions to have some stupid exam. Secondly I doubt you could properly assess whether someone has what it takes to be a Jounin based on some stupid exam.

I would think getting promoted to jounin would be based on how you perform on missions, your skill level and skill set, etc and that there would be a group of people, probably the hokage and the elders that would ultimately decide who gets promoted.

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Originally Posted by Jessper

I want to say it was just before the Deidara fight but I'm not exactly sure. However he is correct.



If it happened it was filler so it isn't that useful of information. :)



I assume you mean how these three are not Jounin? If not Neji made it to Jounin. The rest seem to not be near that level, remember Kakashi said that Jounin generally have control over at least 2 (I think it was 2, if nothing else at least 1) elemental type. Which bodes well for the next time we see Neji. :D

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Not any Jounin can control 2 elemental types, and the maximum is 2 elemental types I think. Not counting the special shinobi's

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Originally Posted by ASSpirine

Not any Jounin can control 2 elemental types, and the maximum is 2 elemental types I think. Not counting the special shinobi's

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Kakashi implied that most of them could

Kakashi himself can control at least 3, 4 if you count the filler battle is shippuden for the bells

What's a special shinobi...? Do you mean special jounins? Because if you do you should know that they are overall weaker than normal jounins, but possess that title because they excel in some field of work ( like Ibiki's interrogation techniques )

I still don't believe that you have to have affinity to one element before you can perform their jutsu's. Meaning Naruto can never learn a katon jutsu, even the most basic katon jutsu would not be possible how simple they are? That doesn't work for me.

And especially Kakashi who has sharingan, this means he can do every element. Yet you say he can do 3 to 4 elements... Does that mean he can't copy e.g. wind jutsus?

And if he possess so many elements then that means that he can create new types (like the ice from Haku)

And with special Shinobi's, I mean someone like Kakuzu who can actually control all the elements. And also the filler lady.

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Originally Posted by ASSpirine

I still don't believe that you have to have affinity to one element before you can perform their jutsu's. Meaning Naruto can never learn a katon jutsu, even the most basic katon jutsu would not be possible how simple they are? That doesn't work for me.

And especially Kakashi who has sharingan, this means he can do every element. Yet you say he can do 3 to 4 elements... Does that mean he can't copy e.g. wind jutsus?

And if he possess so many elements then that means that he can create new types (like the ice from Haku)

And with special Shinobi's, I mean someone like Kakuzu who can actually control all the elements. And also the filler lady.

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... good for you?

Yes, he can't copy wind jutsus and he probably can't copy fire jutsus either.

No, Haku could combine his 2 affinities because his bloodline limit allowed him to

No one can control all 5 elements, this has been explained before. The filler lady is, as you said, filler material and there's probably some trick behind kakusu's jutsu to allow him to perform jutsus of so many different affinities and with so much power.

Okay let me make it simple for you. Naruto can never learn a katon, thats probably true. Heck I doubt Naruto will ever learn a second element, he is not the type i.e. he's an idiot. Anyway I don't think its impossible to use an element if you don't have an affinity for it, however if you don't you will be limited to very basic, low level techniques. Beyond that it seems different elements have different skill sets, meaning you'll probably be able to learn a low level water or earth technique even if you don't have an affinity but elements like fire and especially wind and lightning are impossible to use without an affinity.


Having sharingan doesn't mean he can use every element, as was said early on by Lee and others, you can't copy something with the sharingan if you yourself aren't capable of it. Good example, even though Sasuke copied Lee's taijutsu he had to train for weeks before he could use it. If you can't control wind element then naturally you can't copy a wind technique and its already been stated that sharingan can't copy kekkai genkais.

Simply being able to use multiple elements doesn't mean you can combine them to create your own element. That is a kekkai genkai/bloodline limit and Haku's ice, for example, was a bloodline limit, something only people from his clan could do. The First's Mokuton is also a kekkai genkai that Yamato inherited when Oro injected him with The First's genes.

I thought you were talking about special jounin. Its actually a rank, above chunin and below jounin. Anyway Kakuzu's abilities will be explained, and please never mention filler characters. I so hated when they did that with her, its was obvious they were simply copying Kakuzu's gimmick. In fact nothing in that last filler arc was original.


-Oh and Jessper, barring an appearance in a future filler episode, you will never see Neji again:p

That's what I'm implying, I don't understand where people get the idea that Kakashi has affinity to 3 or 4 different elements. It has never been said for so far I know.

Kekke genkais can't be copied, that I know. Also that taijutsu may be copied, but if you lack the speed, you're nothing with it, that's what Lee basically said. But not able to copy certain ninjutsu's because of the element is something I'm not familiar with.

Well that depends on your interpretation of the word copy. In essence the sharingan copies everything it sees, meaning it breaks down and analyzes every technique it sees so that the user would then be able to do it. If the user is incapable of doing the technique, whether its because of a lack of speed, strength, chakra, kekkai genkai or elemental affinity then they wouldn't be able to do it themselves, which means they can't, uh, copy it. I hope you understand what I'm saying.


Also I think the only elements Kakashi can use are lightning and water. Fire was only used in filler and to my knowledge the only time we've seen him use earth is the head hunter jutsu he used on Sasuke which, in my book, is too low level to count and when he hid underground during the bell training. No the dog summoning doesn't count either.

It all comes down to which techniques are "basic" and performable, and which ones are impossible without a natural talent. To Kakashi's merit, he's commonly remembered as "Kakashi the copy ninja", and less remembered as the "User of 1000 techniques".

How many different elements do you think he's used? ;)

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Originally Posted by Buffalobiian

Just that he's got to make sure every technique hits/counts, unlike our friend in the orange jump suit.

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lol that just cracks me up. our in the orange jump suit.

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Originally Posted by Abdula

-Oh and Jessper, barring an appearance in a future filler episode, you will never see Neji again:p

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Dude, what's that supposed to mean?

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Originally Posted by Buffalobiian

To Kakashi's merit, he's commonly remembered as "Kakashi the copy ninja", and less remembered as the "User of 1000 techniques".How many different elements do you think he's used? ;)

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That's probably and exaggeration but even if it's true there's always the light and dark manipulation plus the nimpo jutsu so if you add the 3 elements we know he can use that should be enough for 1000 different jutsus.

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Originally Posted by Abdula

Also I think the only elements Kakashi can use are lightning and water. Fire was only used in filler and to my knowledge the only time we've seen him use earth is the head hunter jutsu he used on Sasuke which, in my book, is too low level to count and when he hid underground during the bell training. No the dog summoning doesn't count either.

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I still don't think you can use an element you don't have an affinity to., but lets go with your theory for a moment.

I'll give you that the headhunter jutsu isn't an high level jutsu but Summoning Technique: Earth Release: Tracking Fang Technique is a level B jutsu according to naruto wikia. Even if you ignore the grade you have to admit it's a pretty powerful jutsu, for it to catch zabuza so easily and without him noticing it until the final moment.

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Originally Posted by The Archangel

I still don't think you can use an element you don't have an affinity to., but lets go with your theory for a moment.

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I thought it was pretty clear when Kakashi said

"You shouldn't be able to use techniques of that level unless you have an affinity for it"

to mean

"You should be able to use techniques to some level even if you don't have an affinity for it."

No, what he said was that such power should only be achieved if you had that element as your main affinity

Like kakashi, who can use earth and water jutsus but his most powerful techniques will always be electric jutsus because that's his main affinity

what he really was trying to say was, how can he use all these high level element powers when a ninja should normally be confined to 2? Either he's super powerful, or like he said, there must be a trick to how he's doing it.

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Originally Posted by The Archangel

Summoning Technique: Earth Release: Tracking Fang Technique is a level B jutsu according to naruto wikia. Even if you ignore the grade you have to admit it's a pretty powerful jutsu, for it to catch zabuza so easily and without him noticing it until the final moment.

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Yes but you're completely ignoring the summoning part of that technique and regardless of whatever else is in the name, summoning is a ninja art that doesn't require any elemental recomposition. Secondly he used a scroll

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Originally Posted by The Archangel

No, what he said was that such power should only be achieved if you had that element as your main affinity

Like kakashi, who can use earth and water jutsus but his most powerful techniques will always be electric jutsus because that's his main affinity

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Exactly.

Actually we have no idea how it works, so I think we should just take things at face value...

Aren't you guys forgetting something? Didn't Kakashi say that it can take like 20 years to master an element. You could probably learn an element that wasn't your affinity, but it would take even longer. You could also probably learn all the elements...but you can't live long enough. The reason most Jounins don't have more than two is probably because it would take so long to master three, and by that time you might be kind of old ya know?

And did they just introduce hollows?

Actually the 20 years comment was just in regard to Naruto. Kakashi said this training would have taken him about 20 years if he wasn't using the clones, whereas Sasuke learned chidori in a month.

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Originally Posted by Abdula

Actually the 20 years comment was just in regard to Naruto. Kakashi said this training would have taken him about 20 years if he wasn't using the clones, whereas Sasuke learned chidori in a month.

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Just Naruto? Probably, but I'd think normal ninjas would be closer to the 20 year mark than the 1 month mark. Besides being a genius, Sasuke also has his Sharingan, so he didn't have to find out the method himself, ie he could see how it's done. Naruto was taught how to do the Rasengan as well, but he had to discover the actual method (how to make the chakra flow) himself, which was the hard part. (though he DID do it in a week, so bad example).

Either way, time is definitely a factor, and it's not a small one neither. That's all I'm saying.