One Piece Episode 404

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Originally Posted by Assertn

Not necessarily. If some regular joe ate a lion fruit, I'm sure Kaku could still kick his ass.

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Then you're saying that the martial arts style they knew was the difference? Yeah I could see that. Wouldn't that mean that if a little girl found Aokijis or Crocodiles fruit floating in on a dock somewhere and took a bite, then she could hypothetically go to the marines and demand to be an admiral? Actually, I've wondered that for a while. I know this forum likes to talk about fruits and stuff, but what would happen if that did in fact happen? I mean if a little girl or an average joe did eat a logia fruit, and found out that they were virtually unstoppable, would they go to the marines and try and become an admiral? Would they have the presence and reputation to start a powerful pirate crew from that fruit alone?

What do you think would happen?

Hah well, I'm sure earning respect is one requirement to get people to follow you. With the marines, you need to prove your loyalty and capacity to get the job done. In Robin's flashbacks, Aoukiji had his ice powers even back when he was still just a vice admiral, so he had to climb the ranks just like anyone else it seems. Same with Smoker, who is a logia type but just recently got promoted from captain to commander (were those the titles?).

Granted, I'm sure its easier to climb ranks if you're a logia.

come on, you have to look at this logically and say that the world government is the dominant power in one piece at this stage. The two main arms of power for the world government are the royal sichibukai and the marines. Of the marines we can already assume the power of the marines far outstrips that of the sichibukai, evidence to support this is the fact that luffy has beaten already 2 sichibukai, and has been utterly dominated by 2 admirals.

So its safe to assume that in terms of raw power the marines have the edge due to a) sheer numbers and b) stronger "top draw" characters.

Compare the WG to the pirates, right now it seems that the super novas are occupying a similar role to that of the sichibukai, they are far far weaker than the 4E of the grand line and yet are still needed for some reason (evidence of this is both silvers and shanks saving luffy possibly both at a great cost to themselves). Although at this point in time there could well be much much more powerful sichibukai that we havent seen, and kuma has so far been dominant both times we have seen him, its not to the extent that both admirals have been shown to be.

Realistically both sides must be at a stalemate due to the fact that both sides have exsisted for a long time and neither has made much advancement (at least not in the timeline of the anime since rogers execution).

Compare the positions of ACE and smoker, both are relativley low level and can not really be compared to either the emporers or the admirals. In terms of power they are more than likley both on a similar level to the novas/sichibukai. Taking the fight they had as an example is a poor one to choose because neither has the experince to measure up to somone like silvers or kizaru.

We have seen silvers can stop a loggia user without the aid of a fruit, therefore its safe to assume that at some level of experince or technique it will also be possible for others to do the same, and we can assume that both the 4E and the admirals also know of this. Evidence to support this would be that first of all kizaru was not shocked that somone could stop him, he also commented somthinglike "its the first time in a long time somone has cut him" when silvers stopped him from teleporting. Add to the fact that loggia fruits seem to be frighteningly common second only to zoan types it should be assumed that in order for the government to hold power they must be able to stop a loggia user. Also the other 2 4E's have yet to be revealed and they could both be loggia users for all we know.

If a person of rivaling power to whitebeard possesed a loggia fruit ability and the government could not counter such abilitys like silvers can then there would be no stalemate.

If you take all these points into consideration it is clear IMHO that loggia type fruits must be counterable and even if its only on the highest level, in order to survive against the marines who have already shown us 2 of the 3 admirals and both were loggia users, ALL the 4E MUST be able to counter loggia fruit abilities..... it stands to reason that at least one of the 4E will be a loggia user or have them in there crew and as stated above if the marines ant counter this that emporer will become more dominant than the others and eventually the WG.


And to the point about any random guy eating a fruit, i think we have a few pretty good references of that already in the anime, the 1st would be buggy who despite having an amazing power is one of, if not the weakest captain we have seen yet (but strictley speaking hes a joke character right now...so it mightnot be a valid point). We have also seen that fruits dont instantly catapult somone to superhuman strength and speed as shown by luffys quick and easy defeat of bellamy, but on the other hand they do provide amazing boosts which you can see by looking at the foxy pirate crew. I think in all the power of a person comes from the person they were before they took a fruit, kaku kicked ass before he became a giraffe man so the fruit only multiplied his powers. Luffy comes from a family of incredibly strong, ambitions and influential people and as such was always likley to be strong.

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Originally Posted by chambers

come on, you have to look at this logically and say that the world government is the dominant power in one piece at this stage. The two main arms of power for the world government are the royal sichibukai and the marines. Of the marines we can already assume the power of the marines far outstrips that of the sichibukai, evidence to support this is the fact that luffy has beaten already 2 sichibukai, and has been utterly dominated by 2 admirals.

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The strawhats have been utterly dominated by two shichibukai as well... remember Mihawk and Kuma? Plus the two shichibukai that Luffy defeated were long, painful battles that would have easily tilted the other way had Luffy not gained access to their weak points (Luffy almost died twice to Crocodile, and the losers of the forest gave Luffy his nightmare mode against Oz).

If the WG could kill the Shichibukai off, it would. It can't. That's why the WG signed treaties with them.

If the WG could kill the Yonkyou off, it would. It can't, realistically. Even if they kill one, they will be too weakened to defend themselves from attack from the Shichibukai and the other Yonkyou.

I think the WG could kill off some of the Shichibukai, but they figure instead of wasting resources they might as well use them and keep 30% of their profits.

That's fair enough, and I agree. I'm sure they could have taken some of the weaker members. But a couple of the Shichibukai are at least as strong as the Yonkyou, like Mihawk (for sure) and possibly Kuma and Blackbeard.

But the point is: the WG played a game of divide and conquer with the pirates, in order to get some strong fighters on their side. Even if it is only a temporary alliance.

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Originally Posted by poopdeville

If the WG could kill the Shichibukai off, it would. It can't. That's why the WG signed treaties with them.

If the WG could kill the Yonkyou off, it would. It can't, realistically. Even if they kill one, they will be too weakened to defend themselves from attack from the Shichibukai and the other Yonkyou.

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I'll agree with the first statement, but no in way in hell on the second one. Even the first statement is a stretch. But you honestly think that the admirals and some rinky dink doriki level 10 strength marines with some marine ships can take down some of the Yonkou? I'm sure even the weakest mop boys on the Yonkous crews have haki's stronger than Luffy's alone. And no one has brought this up in all of the Yonkou talks you guys have had, but, does anyone realize that they could each be housing a logia user on their crews? It was already proven with Ace on WB's crew.

I do think though that the admirals (just the admirals with no help at all) can take down some of the shichibukai. By some I mean about 3.

Moria
Hancock
and Mihawk

If you need those explained then I'll gladly explain them.

Yes, that is what I wrote. I think if an Admiral fought someone with the determination of a Yonkyou, he might win, and end up very hurt. Hurt enough that any reasonably strong super-pirate (Shichibukai or Yonkyou level) could take him out. And they would. Look at all the Shichibukai scheming going on for this war, which has been planned by the government.

By making the Shichibukai fight, they are making sure they are too busy/hurt to try anything that would take the WG's power. In fact, since most of the Shichibukai want to become PK, it makes sense for them to oppose Whitebeard.

I'm also sure that with an Admiral dead, the Shichibukai would instantly betray the government and dissolve the treaty. So instead of having to fight 4 super-pirates in the New World, they would have 11.

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Originally Posted by poopdeville

Yes, that is what I wrote. I think if an Admiral fought someone with the determination of a Yonkyou, he might win, and end up very hurt. Hurt enough that any reasonably strong super-pirate (Shichibukai or Yonkyou level) could take him out. And they would.

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IF an admiral can kill WB. That would pretty epic. For an admiral to plow through all of the 1600 ships, captains, and then get himself to the head honcho, yeah he might be able to but it'd be a challenge for him for sure. And yeah by the time he killed WB, I agree he would be pretty tired and beat from a long day of taking down a Yonkou. But I don't think all of them would be able to. Granted we're getting onto a different topic now, but personally I don't think Aokiji would be able to take down a Yonkou. He isn't fast enough to dodge cannonballs and attack at the same time. Let get through an armada like WB's. I think Kizaru would be the WG's real only hope of taking down WB or a Yonkou.

Also, I'm confused about something. What did you mean when you said that a shichibukai would gain enough power and credit to be the next Yonkou or Yonkou equivalent? I get the credit part. For example once Kizaru took down WB himself, how would Hancock or even Mihawk for that matter gain power? Wouldn't it be open for anyone to take that spot, not just him? My question isn't the credibility it's the power. How would he gain power from a Yonkou being eliminated? He wouldn't be gaining anything, either in crew or in self power-up.

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Originally Posted by The Chancellor

Also, I'm confused about something. What did you mean when you said that a shichibukai would gain enough power and credit to be the next Yonkou or Yonkou equivalent? I get the credit part. For example once Kizaru took down WB himself, how would Hancock or even Mihawk for that matter gain power? Wouldn't it be open for anyone to take that spot, not just him? My question isn't the credibility it's the power. How would he gain power from a Yonkou being eliminated? He wouldn't be gaining anything, either in crew or in self power-up.

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Sorry for the late reply. I meant that Blackbeard would gain power in "relative terms", not that Blackbeard would gain a new super power or something like that. Basically, he would have one less extremely strong guy to fight on his way to his goal. That makes his position of power stronger, relatively speaking. Basically, this is because he can devote the resources he would have needed for a fight against Whitebeard against other people, like the WG and the remaining Yonkyou.

Of course, if Whitebeard died, the WG would gain the same advantage. But if an Admiral died too (and a Shichibukai left!), they would end up way worse off. They would lose two great fighters, whereas "the pirates" -- the other side of the balance of power -- only lost one. They would definitely (I think) reconsider the idea of taking on any of the Yonkyou until they found a replacement for their dead Admiral. I doubt many of the Shichibukai would remain loyal to the WG. So the WG might end up losing a lot of great fighters.

Every pirate would gain from this, but the newest Yonkyou would gain the most, I think.

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Originally Posted by poopdeville

Of course, if Whitebeard died, the WG would gain the same advantage. But if an Admiral died too (and a Shichibukai left!), they would end up way worse off. They would lose two great fighters, whereas "the pirates" -- the other side of the balance of power -- only lost one.

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I thought that's what you meant. I think if an admiral died (more than a shichibukai leaving in my opinion) than the WG would really be royally screwed. I mean I know it's been beaten into the ground, but the main thing to consider here is that the admirals are all logia users who by themselves could most likely (as we've discussed) could take down a yonkou. Not that easily, but he could. These are all massively tall guys, with no fear and strong fighting abilities backed by logia fruits. Oda has even proven that the only person able to take one down is someone of Raylieghs age and experience.

dude come on.... your throwing out names there like theres no tomorrow be carfull what you say some people dont read the manga and still dont want anything spoiled!

Also we dont know that all three admirals are logia users since we havent seen the final third one and your assuming there isnt more people like lucci about who are secret AND your ignoreing the fact that sen goku is more than likley going to be as powerfull as god himself...

If the admirals are the strongest force the marines have to offer, yet rob lucci was so insanley strong.... and sentoumaru is only vegapunks bodyguard and head of the science division so there will more than likley be other marines of obscene power we havent seen yet...

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Originally Posted by chambers

Also we don't know that all three admirals are logia users since we haven't seen the final third one and your assuming there isn't more people like lucci about who are secret AND your ignoring the fact that sen goku is more than likely going to be as powerful as god himself...

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Sorry about that. Why not make it three for three and make everyone happy? And yeah he probably is insanely strong. Having him just be able to command a bunch of ships and people is not Odas style anyway. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if he had an insane haki level, or a good devils fruit.