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What do you propose then? Ghouls are infinitely stronger than normal humans. From what we´ve seen, the majority of ghouls doesn´t care about human life. So what do we, as humans, do? Well, what do we do with dangerous animals? We put them in cages/special areas or kill them when they get to close to our everyday-life. By that metric, there´s nothing wrong with the investigators´ treatment against ghouls.Quote:
Originally Posted by KrayZ33
NOT indiscriminately killing every single ghoul?Quote:
What do you propose then?
We don't do that with "animals" (which they obviously arn't) either now, do we?
While I do not feel comfortable about indiscriminately killing every single ghoul, the animal comparison is also flawed in that we're not any animal's regular food source, let alone their only food source aside from cannibalism.
There is a path to coexistence. Kaneki's friend is proof of that.
But somehow people dont think that one example of coexistence outweights the overwhelming majority of murdering monsters.Quote:
Originally Posted by shinta|hikari
A good rl-comparison (even though I think it is fucked up and stupid) would be pedophiles. Unlike ghouls, you could argue that even most pedophiles are not criminals. Most of them have a screwed up sexual attraction, but don´t act on it. But even though it´s just am minority of pedophiles that commit sex crimes, our society has nothing but disgust and horror for ALL of them. We cannot even coexist with innocent people who happen to have an unfortunate sexual attraction ... and you think people could ever, at all, accept superpowered cannibals living amidst them?
That makes me wonder at what Kaneki would do if a hungry ghoul killed his friend for food.Quote:
Originally Posted by shinta|hikari
What do you even mean? Even if you are a pedophile or hebephile (which I am, known to friends and some family), you can coexist just fine. Just don't break the law. People don't go around exterminating pedophiles either.Quote:
Originally Posted by MFauli
It is a matter of education. They just have to teach ghouls and humans a better way. Humans also kill other humans. The main difference here is that ghouls HAVE to eat human meat. Once that is resolved, coexistence is certainly possible (i.e. supplied by unfortunate poor dead, lots of them in the world). Ghouls are sentient creatures that even learn to love human beings and treat them not only as equals but valuable. They aren't mindless monsters. Your perspective is, for the lack of a better term, racist.
Humans far outnumber the ghouls. It is the same argument for most vampire stories. Despite being so much stronger than humans, they are actually living in fear of them, forced to disguise themselves. They aren't in the advantageous position, humans are by virtue of numbers.
You have to live in a bubble to seriously believe that. Go start a discussion about pedophiles on any internet forum und you´ll see the full range of postings from "we need to segregate them", over "we shouldn´t hate them, but they should seek chemical treatment", to "i wish every single one of them would die". I know this not because I´m a pedophile, but because I like to take contrarian positions in these debates, arguing in favor of the minority. "Just don´t break the law" won´t convince anybody who has a child. The "maybe" or "what if" is too strong. Which brings us to ghouls and their lust for human meat, which is infinitely worse than illegal sex.Quote:
Originally Posted by shinta|hikari
And just like with ghouls, humans can never accept vampires as a natural part of their society (outside of maybe some obscure, niche b-movie you might mention now). For pete´s sake, during the past few years, a single wolf appearing inside of Germany´s borders caused the whole nation to halt in shock and terror. ONE FREAKING WOLF. An animal that would most likely flee the moment you make some noise. The proposition of ghouls being accepted by human society is entirely unrealistic, even if idealistically reasonable.Quote:
Humans far outnumber the ghouls. It is the same argument for most vampire stories. Despite being so much stronger than humans, they are actually living in fear of them, forced to disguise themselves. They aren't in the advantageous position, humans are by virtue of numbers.
The whole point of my reply to your pedophilia analogy was to show it was a false one. But since you want to pursue it, I will simply restate what I said. People don't exterminate pedophiles, despite how much hate they have for them.
So was the acceptance of homosexuals, and different religious beliefs. Remember when women were burned for having a black cat? or when millions died because they prayed to a different god? Believe it or not, I am a cynic, but history has proven that humans CAN learn and be more accepting, granted it is painstakingly slow.Quote:
Originally Posted by MFauli
While I actually think it could be possible to coexist, I have to disagree at this point. For the simple fact that at least up until now the show depicts the cafe faction as kind of abnormal ghouls. The gourmet might have been also an extreme end (even though his gallery was quite numerous), but otherwise the likes of Rize and Nishiki seemed like the average ghoul mentality. That is, they had absolutely no problems slaying random humans to eat them. For any peaceful coexistence to happen, the vast majority of ghouls would need to want it and live accordingly (not kill humans for food). I'm quite unsure that could happen any time soon. If the humans got better and better finding and slaying ghouls, as I suppose would be the natural development, then facing annihilation the ghoul species might want to seek any way out.
A lot (read: most) people wish to either lock them away forever or simply kill them. You are not new to the internet, so if you had ever had a debate about this topic, you have to know this. People wish to remove pedophiles from society, however way, and you think they would tolerate man eating monsters that will always win a physical confrontation? That is wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by shinta|hikari
Homosexuals were never a threat to anyone. Most pedophiles are not a threat to anyone. Most ghouls ARE a threat to everyone, and, moreover, even if peaceful, the only reason why you´d be alive when walking next to them, would be because they choose to. The moment they change their mind, you´re dead, you have no chance at surviving a ghoul attack.Quote:
So was the acceptance of homosexuals, and different religious beliefs. Remember when women were burned for having a black cat? or when millions died because they prayed to a different god? Believe it or not, I am a cynic, but history has proven that humans CAN learn and be more accepting, granted it is painstakingly slow.
Humans can learn, but what you´re calling "painstakingly slow" might be simply too slow. Mostly, humans are dumb. We´re at the edge of truly tolerating homosexuality. It´ll be an eternity until pedophiles aren´t demonized anymore. Then it´ll take even longer for animals to stop being murdered for food purposes. And by that time, we´ll have fully functional A.I. that will be discriminated against ("This is not an intelligent being, it´s just some machine!"). Humans will always brutally hate on something and I´m tired of arguing for one matter, only for another to arise.
No one so far even considered the false-positives, sheesh
"He was seen going out with that ghoul from before - He must be a jew too, hang him!!"
Apparently ghouls don't take physical damage from humans though, so you can just run a test on things. Still, if you're human then it's not nice either.Quote:
Originally Posted by KrayZ33
I am of the opinion that ghouls normally just attack for food. The ones that attack for fun are fewer. It lessens your profile and increases your survivability after all.
I am talking about the possibility of coexistence. I am not saying it is going to be quick and easy. It might take several generations, but saying it is impossible outright is not only pessimistic, but inhumane.
Ghouls are sentient beings that are being hunted down indiscriminately despite some being completely innocent. You are too vested in humanity (which is understandable because you are human) if you think that is acceptable. If you don't think that is acceptable, then there is value in achieving change.
A practical solution would be to still keep ghouls a secret to the greater public, but have human organizations (like the one they already have, but less psychotic) work together with ghoul organizations (something they could form to ease the process) to prevent conflicts from happening. Of course, people and ghouls will still kill each other from time to time just because it is their nature (people kill each other all the time), then they can simply police (read: kill) the ones that act that way.
Extermination is the stupidest solution here. Many will die on both sides until the ghouls are exterminated, children and all.
Episode 8 - HS
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Man, what a main character: Either he's a helpless punching bag or a berserk that kills everything that moves, friend or foe alike. It seems like he won't ever change unless he starts to eat properly. At least now he knows how to fight: By destroying the enemy's weapons. Though it would still require he eats and trains to avoid the berserk state. On the other hand since Hinami didn't die, I wonder if Kaneki's motivation disappeared again.
I foresaw Touka's fight ending like this the moment it began with Hinami still around. Touka is surprisingly weak, although I admit that Mado guy was strong especially when wielding two quinques. Touka might be more effective if she kept her head cool. With her speed, she shouldn't try to rely on rage and brute force all the time since it's not her forte.
Kureo Mado is (was :-( ) such an awesome guy. Worthy of having me change my avatar in his favor. Sure, he had gone crazy a long time ago, but it wasn´t because of some silly hunger for power or anything like that. He apparently lost someone or several people to ghouls. And even without this history, as far as we have been shown, most ghouls are man-killing monsters. He was fighting for other people´s lives, and his vast experience had turned him ruthless. On top of that, he was a normal human being, special training aside, so going toe to toe with inherently physically superior opponents just makes him earn more of my respect. And then he always watched out for his partner´s well-being, always making sure his apprentice wouldn´t be seriously harmed. Yet, also instilling a very noble morale into his pupil, "never run away, even if it costs a leg or an arm". A true ghoul fighter through and through.
I will miss him, but I agree with Kraco that I saw his death coming when Hinami was just standing there unobserved.
Now for the ghouls: What dumb idiots. So our hero starts out, trying to explain that not all ghouls are evil. To be exact, he made it sound as if most ghouls weren´t evil, which, as far as we´ve seen, is the understatement of the year or simply put a blatant lie. Anyway, so when his weak effort of an explanation failed (he simply stood there and took a beating. seriously, how about talking?!), he started fighting the guy. Okay, he targeted his quinque. But then ... he loses control over Rize´s ghoul-powers, a fact that he knew about before. And to make it overly clear, he shouts towards the investigator "Run away! I cannot control it! You will die!".
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Great. Really, hero, you just made the most convincing argument that a peaceful co-existence between humans and ghouls is a real possibility. NOT.
I couldn´t believe how dumb this was. And hilariously enoguh, meanwhile Touka had a rant at her opponent, stating that all humans should die. Fantastic, lol.
shinta, you still believe that co-existence is an option in this story? really?
It wasn't dumb at all. Amon should have been left with an impression this particular ghoul didn't want to kill him, even to the point of telling him to run when the ghoul was losing control. Let's not forget Amon was the one doing all the attacking in the beginning. And he didn't aim for only a weapon. If Kaneki had been a human, he would have died many times over. Yet still he refused to attack Amon. When he finally had to, he only destroyed the weapon and then told Amon to run. I don't really see how that was dumb or ambiguous. After all, if Amon hadn't kept pushing, Kaneki would have never attacked either and wouldn't have been in any danger of losing control.Quote:
Originally Posted by MFauli
Kaneki's plan was simply to tell Amon that not all ghouls want to kill humans, even if some do. It's up to Amon to either admit or ignore it, especially after the harsh reality of Mado dying. I don't believe Amon is a lost cause, though, since for some reason he didn't want to finish off Kaneki. Mado would have killed Kaneki immediately and never looked back. Mado had apparently lost so much that he was practically a ghoul himself. The old story of turning into what you hated.
The fact that this is what you gleaned from this episode proves that there is more hope for coexistence than there is for your tolerance.Quote:
Originally Posted by MFauli
What Kaneki finally realised is that to do anything, you really need some sort of power. As for Ghoul-Human co-existance, he must first unify the Ghouls by conquering all the wards and having them under his wing. Only then can his word be trusted by humans. As MFauli said, most ghouls seem to kill for a living. Kaneki needs to at least have an influence over that before making speeches.
On the other he's not very smart though, so doing the above would actually be pretty out of character. I can only hope that things progress and don't just stagnate. Kaneki having a "realisation" every single fight would be boring.
One thing we did learn from this episode is that the other one-eyed ghoul that's running around isn't as nice as Kaneki. I also can't tell from Touka's reaction whether Mado turned out to be related to her personally. That ending scene had a "Luke, I am your father" feel to it.
It was a pretty generic ring, so I assumed what shocked Touka was the mere fact thatthis loon was married, too. Which freaked her out even moreso since he just came from murdering the parents of Hinami´s.Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffalobiian