Mushoku Tensei: Jobless Reincarnation

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there is no way to convince you otherwise and not even an attempt to see the other side.

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... from the "side" that shows no attempt to understand the other side either, lol.

Can you guys really not understand how random/arbitrary/meaningless the whole scene is?

- hero party wanders around
- powerful entity appears
- "kills" hero without listening to anything but "man-god"
- screen fades to black
- hero is alive
- explanation: powerful entity healed him
- why: because powerful entity LISTENED.
- the end

Whether or not you liked the scene, is it that hard to see why others didn't like it? For me, it's a stereotypical shounen scene (Ryll's Bleach comparison is perfect) where something significant happens, but then it actually didn't happen, because the author knows that he'd have to rewrite the whole story. It's just a boring ass "cool, strong guy strikes down hero with much violence!" scene that has no consequence afterwards (spare me your "Eris has a trauma now and Rudy will be more careful from now" excuses).

Again, outcomes that would have made the scene much better imo:
- someone else appearing and healing Rudy (Roxy, his mom, Sylphie, a new character, maybe Eris exhausting herself and healing him, anyone)
- Rudy actually dying, man-god giving him another body (someone who's already 12 yo or so) and going back. Having to prove to Eris and Ruijierd that it's really him. Would have been fun and interesting. And it would have given actual significance to Orsted's attack: Now it'd truly appear as if Rudy is some freakish man-god apostle.
- the worst option, but still better than what we got: Rudy getting his shit together and showing what his magic is really capable of.

What we got, however, was random whatever.

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Originally Posted by MFauli

... from the "side" that shows no attempt to understand the other side either, lol.

Can you guys really not understand how random/arbitrary/meaningless the whole scene is?

- hero party wanders around
- powerful entity appears
- "kills" hero without listening to anything but "man-god"
- screen fades to black
- hero is alive
- explanation: powerful entity healed him
- why: because powerful entity LISTENED.
- the end

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Of course it's random (as quite literally every other encounter or so he had so far is), but why do you think it's meaningless when it's so clearly not? As I have mentioned multiple times already, this conflict told us more about the world and upcoming story than the last 20 episodes or so. These "creatures" and beings exist in that world, that has been established as well since forever. And the bold part is something I can't follow in the slightest where this is coming from as a point of dislike?

He doesn't listen to everyone, he listens to those he thinks are worthy listening to. What's the huge deal?
Isn't that like a normal thing to do, just like you respond a "hello" with "hello", normally? For all the dislike of the abnormal und unlikely, this sure comes up often even though it's completely normal/likely.

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Whether or not you liked the scene, is it that hard to see why others didn't like it? For me, it's a stereotypical shounen scene (Ryll's Bleach comparison is perfect) where something significant happens, but then it actually didn't happen, because the author knows that he'd have to rewrite the whole story. It's just a boring ass "cool, strong guy strikes down hero with much violence!" scene that has no consequence afterwards (spare me your "Eris has a trauma now and Rudy will be more careful from now" excuses).

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Even though Rudy got healed, everything still happened. He didn't disappear from that planet, he is walking around. Aside from these "excuses" you came up with that I haven't made, these too are consequences you choose to ignore, even though they could be important for their character development. Exactly my point of "willfully ignoring" stuff that happens because you disagree with it.
Why would the author even have to "rewrite" the story, he was *writing* it the way he intended it.
This is clearly not some afterthought added into the whole story but a major plotpoint.

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Again, outcomes that would have made the scene much better imo:
- someone else appearing and healing Rudy (Roxy, his mom, Sylphie, a new character, maybe Eris exhausting herself and healing him, anyone)

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"How convenient... that someone else was there"
It would neither improve nor make this scene worse. I don't see the connection to how it would improve it. Explain that to me without ignoring what HIM healing RUDY means or potentially could mean.

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- Rudy actually dying, man-god giving him another body (someone who's already 12 yo or so) and going back. Having to prove to Eris and Ruijierd that it's really him. Would have been fun and interesting. And it would have given actual significance to Orsted's attack: Now it'd truly appear as if Rudy is some freakish man-god apostle.

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So you want to write your own story? What if this isn't the direction this story wants to go in the slightest? Fun and interesting is something a many things are, not just your delusion.

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- the worst option, but still better than what we got: Rudy getting his shit together and showing what his magic is really capable of.

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He already did it this way as well, but here you complain about shonen stuffand want to fix them with even more shonen stuff. The fucking irony... again

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Originally Posted by KrayZ33

Of course it's random (as quite literally every other encounter or so he had so far is), but why do you think it's meaningless when it's so clearly not? As I have mentioned multiple times already, this conflict told us more about the world and upcoming story than the last 20 episodes or so. These "creatures" and beings exist in that world, that has been established as well since forever. And the bold part is something I can't follow in the slightest where this is coming from as a point of dislike?

He doesn't listen to everyone, he listens to those he thinks are worthy listening to. What's the huge deal?
Isn't that like a normal thing to do, just like you respond a "hello" with "hello", normally? For all the dislike of the abnormal und unlikely, this sure comes up often even though it's completely normal/likely.



Even though Rudy got healed, everything still happened. He didn't disappear from that planet, he is walking around. Aside from these "excuses" you came up with that I haven't made, these too are consequences you choose to ignore, even though they could be important for their character development. Exactly my point of "willfully ignoring" stuff that happens because you disagree with it.
Why would the author even have to "rewrite" the story, he was *writing* it the way he intended it.
This is clearly not some afterthought added into the whole story but a major plotpoint.


"How convenient... that someone else was there"
It would neither improve nor make this scene worse. I don't see the connection to how it would improve it. Explain that to me without ignoring what HIM healing RUDY means or potentially could mean.

So you want to write your own story? What if this isn't the direction this story wants to go in the slightest? Fun and interesting is something a many things are, not just your delusion.


He already did it this way as well, but here you complain about shonen stuffand want to fix them with even more shonen stuff. The fucking irony... again

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What I get from your posting is that you care more about winning an argument on the internet, rather than understanding any of my points. "So you want to write your own story?" - no, I gave a better alternative. If the author writes himself into a corner where the "best" solution he can come up with is the villain himself healing Rudy, then that's the author's issue.

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Originally Posted by MFauli

What I get from your posting is that you care more about winning an argument on the internet, rather than understanding any of my points. "So you want to write your own story?" - no, I gave a better alternative. If the author writes himself into a corner where the "best" solution he can come up with is the villain himself healing Rudy, then that's the author's issue.

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No not at all. It's not a better alternative, it's only for you(!). You write a completely different plot. What do you expect me to answer with other than that???

What kind of corner are you even talking about? He (the author) could've not killed Rudy but decided to do it and heal him.
Do you *honestly*, like seriously, you start thinking about it and *honestly* believe that the Author wrote a scene that is like half a page long and said "Fuck, I messed up and now my charcter has to heal Rudy - Ah fuck it, I'm too lazy to redo that scene"???
Are you freaking serious? Do you know how old the source material is??? Do you think he wrote this and admitted the story in a live-ticker to his editors and what was once written can't be undone?

That's such a sad take, it's making me angry because of how stupid it is and how far from any reality whatsoever. This isn't an "opinion" of mine.. that's just not how it works, like how 1+1 doesn't equal 3.
That's a straight up made up delusion you came up with there.

THINK for a second and REALIZE, that this is what the author WANTED it to be because that behavior just means something DIFFERENT to what YOU want it to be. There is absolutely no helping you if you think the Author made a mistake and has written himself in a corner by a - what YOU call YOURSELF - random encounter of which it's meaning has yet to be explained properly.

To be able to write yourself in a corner, you need to have a situation where the outcome is set in stone or.... have something that could possibly lead to such a situation. So please, for the love of god, come up with something better. This was by far the worst take you've given so far. The very fact that he could've spawned in Sylphie there that is on some kind of mission. A silly idea that you came up with yourself even, and thought it would've been better, already means that he/she didn't write himself in a corner.

Fuck no - in all honesty and objectivity god gave to humankind..

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Originally Posted by Ryllharu

I am consistent, yes.

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You certainly are. I wouldn't have checked your old posts. You are still watching, though, despite disliking much of the story.

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Originally Posted by KrayZ33

As for Demon Goddess and Ruijerd.
Do people even realize that the Man-God lead Rudy to them?

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That's the bare minimum of lead-in if you want to call it that. From purely the writing point of view, it still did happen very conveniently for Rudeus. He didn't really need to work for it, or anything. Nor did the Man-God. Neither could the Man-God affect Ruijerd or Kishirika Kishirisu. After the event in this ep, the Man-God said he can't see the Dragon God, so he couldn't warn Rudeus about him, but for all we know, the Man-God did foresee this and told Rudeus nothing precisely so that this meeting would happen. If you ask me, the Man-God is more like a villain, instead of Orsted.

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Originally Posted by MFauli

What I get from your posting is that you care more about winning an argument on the internet, rather than understanding any of my points. "So you want to write your own story?" - no, I gave a better alternative. If the author writes himself into a corner where the "best" solution he can come up with is the villain himself healing Rudy, then that's the author's issue.

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Haha, writes himself into a corner? You can't write yourself into a corner in a single scene. He doesn't write this live, real time, in front of an audience. If he wasn't happy with the scene and if it didn't suit his purposes, he would have changed or even removed the whole thing. An author writing themselves into a corner is a more complicated process that happens over a longer period of time. Typically it happens if a story turns out to be longer than it was originally supposed to be (extremely common in shounen manga). One of the most typical such problems is power creep (extremely common in shounen manga).

It was already said that this was nothing but Orsted's introduction. This was the foreshadowing of things to happen later with him. What happened here was nothing but a basis for their next meeting, whenever that will happen. It was a pretty rough introduction, with Rudeus experiencing death, but it was still nothing but an introduction. How much do you demand from an introduction? It did fulfill its purpose of making Orsted look like a hostile giant in Rudeus's eyes, which means he needs to get stronger if he ever dreams of confronting him again. Yet it also didn't make Orsted look totally unreasonable because the woman's words could affect him and Rudeus wasn't left dead.

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Originally Posted by MFauli

Can you guys really not understand how random/arbitrary/meaningless the whole scene is?

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I mean...I assume the scene's purpose is to establish who this future important character is, what their motivation is and exactly where they fall on the power scale.

To which, "Orstead the Dragon God.", "Killing the Man God.", and "Much higher than Rudy.", have all been firmly established.

As someone who has read the WN (Not the LN) like 10 years ago I don't remember having any particular reactions to Orsted healing Rudeus. Only thing I remember was wondering how he knew everyone and their futures if everyone is scared shitless of him and thought that was the hardest thing to accept at face value. It's kinda absurd to imagine him for some reason sitting down with Paul and Zenith, having some tea and discussing their children and lineage while they're quaking in their boots.

Anyway from reading KrayZ33 and Ryllharus posts Orsted reminds/sounds a lot like MCs in all the generic Manwhas I've been reading lately where they go back in time. Mostly the whole knowledge of certain characters and their future/importance and reaction to the unknown variable, usually the unknown variable isn't an important variable at all and the MC more or less ignores it. So the comparison is basically that Mushoku becomes a story about that unknown variable that the MC decided to ignore/not include in his party, the idea makes it more entertaining in my mind actually.

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Originally Posted by KrayZ33

THINK for a second and REALIZE, that this is what the author WANTED it to be

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And I criticize that.

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Originally Posted by MFauli

And I criticize that.

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You can criticize what you want.
You can even dislike it if you want.
What you shouldn't do is making up all the wrong/non existent reasons or willfully ignoring plot and discussion points made in that scene, just so you can justify hating it.

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Originally Posted by fireheart

As someone who has read the WN (Not the LN) like 10 years ago I don't remember having any particular reactions to Orsted healing Rudeus. Only thing I remember was wondering how he knew everyone and their futures if everyone is scared shitless of him and thought that was the hardest thing to accept at face value. It's kinda absurd to imagine him for some reason sitting down with Paul and Zenith, having some tea and discussing their children and lineage while they're quaking in their boots.

Anyway from reading KrayZ33 and Ryllharus posts Orsted reminds/sounds a lot like MCs in all the generic Manwhas I've been reading lately where they go back in time. Mostly the whole knowledge of certain characters and their future/importance and reaction to the unknown variable, usually the unknown variable isn't an important variable at all and the MC more or less ignores it. So the comparison is basically that Mushoku becomes a story about that unknown variable that the MC decided to ignore/not include in his party, the idea makes it more entertaining in my mind actually.

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I assumed that since he's called a Dragon God, he has some supernatural ability of divination to figure out things about people, their past, present, and maybe the future to some degree. Kind of like he could right-click on people and select Properties. That's also how the other god, Man-God, seems to be operating when guiding Rudeus (for his own amusement). However, apparently Orsted couldn't read Rudeus much, and when he checked the info on Paul and Zenith, the properties only listed two kids.

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Originally Posted by fireheart

Anyway from reading KrayZ33 and Ryllharus posts Orsted reminds/sounds a lot like MCs in all the generic Manwhas I've been reading lately where they go back in time. Mostly the whole knowledge of certain characters and their future/importance and reaction to the unknown variable, usually the unknown variable isn't an important variable at all and the MC more or less ignores it. So the comparison is basically that Mushoku becomes a story about that unknown variable that the MC decided to ignore/not include in his party, the idea makes it more entertaining in my mind actually.

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I'm quite partial to the ones where the protagonist's recall isn't perfect, or their perspective on the events and people who lead to their prior demise was limited, though my personal favorite "do-over" manwha has both of those aspects as well as a third. The lead's partial success in fixing the do-over timeline results in their internal acknowledgement that the present state has deviated far enough now that they're in unknown territory again.

Re:zero did this on such a short scale that the suspense is ruined with the presumption of eventual success. The good manwha out there imply it really is a single new shot, and they have no idea where and what caused the prior timeline to spiral into their guaranteed doom. Erased handled that similarly well.

So it would kind of ruin it to reincarnate Rudy again unless it was from complete scratch, and he'd probably fuck up the relationship with Eris, Sylphie, or Roxy. Being revived by Orsted sucks, and I would have rather it be anyone else, including Eris or Rudy himself barely managing to survive and being forced to recover with healing over the next year or something. Instantly killed and instantly fixed really deflates the tension.

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Originally Posted by Kraco

I assumed that since he's called a Dragon God, he has some supernatural ability of divination to figure out things about people, their past, present, and maybe the future to some degree. Kind of like he could right-click on people and select Properties. That's also how the other god, Man-God, seems to be operating when guiding Rudeus (for his own amusement). However, apparently Orsted couldn't read Rudeus much, and when he checked the info on Paul and Zenith, the properties only listed two kids.

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In all our bickering, it's going ignored even though I've mentioned it twice, three times now below.

Orsted's dialogue confirmed there are time loops. Otherwise he would have no way of knowing that Paul Greyrat only ever has two daughters.

Rudy's presence means the Man-God has fucked with this present time loop (kinda hard to guess that a different deity intervened and isekai'd Rudy, but that would be a really crazy and interesting twist).

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Originally Posted by Ryllharu

In all our bickering, it's going ignored even though I've mentioned it twice, three times now below.

Orsted's dialogue confirmed there are time loops. Otherwise he would have no way of knowing that Paul Greyrat only ever has two daughters.

Rudy's presence means the Man-God has fucked with this present time loop (kinda hard to guess that a different deity intervened and isekai'd Rudy, but that would be a really crazy and interesting twist).

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Huh. I did notice someone throwing around the idea of a time loop at some point, but time loops can be kind of an annoying plot element. Just how many loops would Orsted have to go through, anyway, to remember such random people? If that is really so, he might be a total lunatic already, and I wouldn't blame him even if he killed and revived Rudeus 10 times in a row. He could be Sheogorath's best buddy after enough time loops.

If Orsted was a timetraveller who lived through thousands of loops, then I would understand his rash decision to kill Rudy.

But I didn't interpret what he said as time travel. Rather his ability is to know the past and future, like an all-seeing eye Odin-style.

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Originally Posted by MFauli

But I didn't interpret what he said as time travel. Rather his ability is to know the past and future, like an all-seeing eye Odin-style.

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Suppose that hinges on the interpretation of the line where Orsted says he hasn't met Eris and Rujierd "yet" though...he literally just did.

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Originally Posted by Ryllharu

So it would kind of ruin it to reincarnate Rudy again unless it was from complete scratch, and he'd probably fuck up the relationship with Eris, Sylphie, or Roxy.

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Sorry think there's some misunderstanding here. I meant that if you combine the way you and KrayZ33 describe Orsted it makes me think of those series. Since I read Omniscient Reader's Viewpoint not long ago my mind drew a Orsted=Junghyeok and his 1800+ regressions, only difference is that Rudeus isn't Dokja since he doesn't have any information. It's a bit off topic but curious since you mentioned a bit, which is your personal favorite "do-over" Manwha?

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Originally Posted by fireheart

Sorry think there's some misunderstanding here. I meant that if you combine the way you and KrayZ33 describe Orsted it makes me think of those series. Since I read Omniscient Reader's Viewpoint not long ago my mind drew a Orsted=Junghyeok and his 1800+ regressions, only difference is that Rudeus isn't Dokja since he doesn't have any information. It's a bit off topic but curious since you mentioned a bit, which is your personal favorite "do-over" Manwha?

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No confusion here, aside from what I contributed with a partially directed reply. MFauli proposed giving Rudy a new body or reincarnating him again into the time loops that Orsted is obviously aware of. Using the subgenre of "do-over"/second chance type series (which I openly believe Korea does the best) I contemplated the pitfalls of that alternate solution to Orsted killing Rudy and then immediately reviving him.

The Fantasie of a Stepmother (aka A Stepmother's Märchen) would be my personal favorite "do-over" manwha. At times sweet, typically charming, and at times tragic and utterly ruthless.

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Originally Posted by Ryllharu

So it would kind of ruin it to reincarnate Rudy again unless it was from complete scratch, and he'd probably fuck up the relationship with Eris, Sylphie, or Roxy.

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The only way I'd find getting reincarnated again interesting is if he had to start over in a brand new world!

Gimmie that isekai! Character dies at the end of each saga and starts over on a new world each time.

Episode 22

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Well damn...

The transition from "I'm a normie" to I'm alone again, foreshadowed by that montage earlier in the episode sure hits.

I'd be disappointed if Rudy doesn't keep her hair or make it into something.

So Eris had sex with an underage boy, then threw him away right after getting what she wanted. OKAY.

Agreed about keeping some of her hair.

Disappointed that the relationship drama was "solved" so easily. With Sylphie and Roxy on the menu, I would have liked to see Rudy and Eris talk out their future plans.

I wouldn't call this a good episode, full of previous footage to pad out the time.

It spent 22 minutes to effectively run through three scenes.

I was at least hoping they were going to ask where Ghislaine was sent to, and they brushed right through it and just expositioned the death of Eris' family.

Not much else to say really, since this episode might as well have been 8 minutes long.