Naruto Chapter 442

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Originally Posted by Sidnne

There's actually a pretty big difference between "after" and "before". In fact, they're sort of opposites...

It's more than a simple "mis-wording", its a pretty important observation to note when regarding the time frame and the impact of Jiraiya's fight with Pein in terms of buying Konoha time.



The toads were fighting Pein? Jiraiya had nothing to do with that?

They got their "observations, intel gatherings, and memory" by watching Jiraiya fight Pein.

Think a little before you post. If anyone is "nit-picking" here, it's you. So much so that while you're busy doing that, you're completely missing the explanation that you claim to be in search of.

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okay, if it's so simple. if it's actually in the posts. if it's already all been explained, and i'm just reading over it, missing it entirely, then please, please just quote it, put it in bold, i don't care. just plainly show me where it is, and i'll read it. if it's in the chapters, please link me to a page, and i will read it. i don't care. you all seem to get how Naruto's knowledge that he's fighting clones made him use different tactics than if he didn't know, but I don't.

I'm not asking for people to differentiate between the frogs or jiraiya, it doesn't matter and is completely irrelevant to what i'm asking whether or not jiraiya or the frogs told them about the vision, or the abilities, or the bodies or whatever.

all i'm interested in is someone simply explaining how the message "the real one isn't there" affected Naruto's battle tactics. if you can just link me to a page in a chapter, that would be fine. that is all i've been interested in since the start.

much obliged.

Well, I don't know if it was mentioned in the on-going argument, but without Jiraiya's sacrifice/information, to Konoha/Naruto, Pain wouldn't have been perceived as what he is right now. Instead of it being 6 "bodies" with 1 specific ability each, it'd be 6 Akatsuki's attacking Konoha. That completely changes the game, strategically.

Knowing that each Pain can only do one thing is a huge strategic advantage. Would they have figured that out eventually? Probably. But Konoha has managed to dodge complete annihilation by having this information BEFORE the attack started.

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Originally Posted by Pandadice

but the point me and poopdeville don't see, is how the very last message Jiraiya sent, the thing he poured the last bit of strength into, the note "the real one isn't there", affected the way Naruto took them out. Naruto didn't strategically try to find the real one and by-pass the clones. that's the kind of tactic you'd expect since he did have the information afterall. no, in stead he just powered through them, and yeah he probably had it so easily since Pain's full power had been diminished a minute (rough time example! not to be taking literally as exactly 1 minute or 60 second in the naruto universe) beforehand. but regardless, Naruto took on each clone as though it was a real ninja. he took them out exactly like he would've if they were all real ninja with those abilities.

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No. He took them on as ONE ninja. Because thats what Pain is. Because thats what Jiraiya told them. Its not that he wanted to fight through the Pain crew, he kinda had to. Its just that they took a little time putting all the info together to figure out how Pain works, which is probably why you got confused with it all.

Let's not forget that Jiraiya could have run away to fight another day -- accomplishing most of the goals Abdula was "correcting" me about -- but decided to sacrifice himself to get Pein's secret, which he wrote on Pa's back.

I never said Jiraiya's mission was worthless. But his sacrifice was, because the intentions he stated turned out to be irrelevant in Naruto's fight against Pein.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/381/10/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/381/11/

Some people seem to be harping on Jiraiya's message being worthless, or not used, or not effecting the fight. Without his message about the real one not being there, would naruto or any of the konoha ninjas even consider the thought that there's a real pein out in the mountains controlling the other bodies. Probably not. They'd fight the 6 bodies, knowing that each had 1 ability, they had shared vision, there's a delay between god realms ability, but after all 6 were destroyed they'd think they had won and that pein was dead.

Jiraiya's message changed the fight in so much as that they would know killing the 6 bodies isn't enough.

He realized that the "real one was not with them" when one of the Pein's bodies ran head into his shield and was killed. At that point, he also came to the realization that he would not just be able to get up and run away. But I dispute that theory due to the revalation of reverse summoning.

I love this debate and both sides have great points. I actually see the logic that both sides are following. Great debaters on both sides.

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Originally Posted by Pandadice

all i'm interested in is someone simply explaining how the message "the real one isn't there" affected Naruto's battle tactics. if you can just link me to a page in a chapter, that would be fine. that is all i've been interested in since the start.

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http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/441/13/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/441/14/

There ya go.

If he hadn't known that the real one wasn't with them, he would have been fighting Pein as 6 different ninja, not realizing that they were all puppets controlled by the someone who isn't present.
Now then, without Konoha having the knowledge of the message of the real one not being with them, they would never have been trying to find information about Pein's identity from the capture rain nin or from the dead body. This: http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/436/04/ would not have happened.

And after this: http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/442/17/ they would have assumed that Pein was completely finished and left Nagato free to create more bodies and attack again later. But having the information allows them to go after Nagato to finish him off once and for all.

To sum it up, the "battle tactics" that are derived from the information are "I need to clear these puppets out my way first, then go after the end boss." Instead of "I've got to stop these 6 guys."

okay, that's good enough for me. with the knowledge that it's a puppet-like jutsu, that means they'll look for the real pain. i hope the real one doesn't go down too easily, though with that frail looking body i don't expect much.

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Originally Posted by poopdeville

Let's not forget that Jiraiya could have run away to fight another day -- accomplishing most of the goals Abdula was "correcting" me about -- but decided to sacrifice himself to get Pein's secret, which he wrote on Pa's back.

I never said Jiraiya's mission was worthless. But his sacrifice was, because the intentions he stated turned out to be irrelevant in Naruto's fight against Pein.

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Pein isn't defeated yet. Do you think Kishi won't go back to the code written on the Frog's back, after setting it up like that? I really find that hard to believe. Shikamaru will solve it, and it will do something to aid their cause. I just can't see the author setting Jiraiya to die thinking he had discovered the secret, and then having it end up being nothing at all.

Also, thanks to Jiraiya's recon, Naruto knew to cover the fat pain's eyes so he could drop a rasengan down on the respawner pain without them expecting it.

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Originally Posted by Narasho

Pein isn't defeated yet. Do you think Kishi won't go back to the code written on the Frog's back, after setting it up like that? I really find that hard to believe. Shikamaru will solve it, and it will do something to aid their cause. I just can't see the author setting Jiraiya to die thinking he had discovered the secret, and then having it end up being nothing at all.

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Umm, they already did solve it. They know that the real one is not with them. Naruto asked to talk to the real person in this very chapter. A few chapters back, Shika and his crew when looking for Nagato as well. So I would say that the cat is out of the bag.