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Yet remains the question:
Why a Semi-Awakened Claymore like Clare, eventhough she has Irene's arm and training, can beat Rigardo, presented as one of the most powerful awakened being?
Why being semi-awakened give so much power than being fully awakened?
<david beat me to this line, but ill keep it so my post makes sense> Still, that doesnt explain why awakened no. 47's legs are faster than Rigardo's (definitely stronger and faster than Clare as a claymore, since practically everyone is).
I hope they give at least this an explanation. The theory I gave earlier would suffice, I just hope they show it before it ends. Otherwise, its an illogical powerup, which is what really irritates me about shounen series.
Was Teresa the strongest number 1 ever?
That's because you guys still are stuck in the mindset that Clare was justifiably ranked #47. The organization had said that they placed her there because they didn't know what to expect of her and that she was an experiment, so that Clare was ranked #47 really doesn't bother me. Everyone has different potentials, and every Claymore era has different Claymores. Maybe when Rigardo was around most male Claymores were weakass, so him being #3 doesn't necessarily make him stronger than some of the weaker ones of this era. It's really nothing to concerns ourselves about because it's nothing that can be measured or explained, there a tons of possible explanations and none will be presented in the series so might as well accepted as it is.
They would have just got killed. The best they could have done would have been to distract Rigardo for half a second so that Clare could have landed a clear hit. However, Rigardo might not have fallen for such tricks, being an experienced fighter and everything. Rigardo was pretty much untouchable what came to these Claymores, that is, before Clare's partial awakenings.Quote:
Originally Posted by Munsu
She definetely isn't as weak as her 47 states, but due to her amount of Yoki and skills she was noted right away as a zako. When Rigardo was on that Cliff he only determined 5 people being worth killing due to their Yoki's. It's not like Clare has an unsurmountable amount of Yoki, that'd honestly give her that much of a power boost, semi-awakened even. But yeah, we'll just have to accept it for how faulty and how much it falls in line with Shounen archetypes.
I guess we had to rely on the faces and eyes of the scenes were these claymores were showed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Munsu
It seems to me they were totally outpowered by Rigardo and Clare... that they new at
that moment, Clare is their last feeble chance.
We've seen how the claymore thought to be the strongest, ie Miria, has almost been killed. The other claymores know/think they have absolutely no chance against Rigardo. Plus they can feel with their yoma sensing the rage of the battle, the forces fighting... and I think they sense it's way too high for them.
Only Clare dares, powers-up and then wins.
The only other Claymore still fighting being Deneve (if I'm not wrong), trying to do anything she can to disturb Rigardo... although she can't really do anything.
It's not Deneve, it's the one with the stretchy arms whose name I can't remember >_>
Helen. It's confusing at first since they are almost always introduced together. One of them yells the other's name at various points in the series.
@Munsu - The 47 comment was meant as an exaggeration. It is unfortunate you didnt get it. The point is, Clare is not supposed to be that fast with the information that was given to us. They could have explained a bit more, it wouldnt take a lot. Heck, I gave a decent one in a second. Without them telling us, we cant really be sure, and that is precisely the reason for my complaint. Well, one thing I am sure about is your explanation isnt likely to be true (in other words quite impossible).
I think mindset might have something to do with why Clare seems to be able to be on par with a lot of awakened beings. For example all the awakened beings previously seem to be airheads who are thinking of something else during battle, like when fighting Orphelia she was always going ''niisan niiiiisan''.
Whereas Clare seems to always be oozing with determination and concentration like in the last battle when all that was going through her head was getting stronger and faster etc etc...
So, was Rigardo. He genuinely wanted to kill her.
No, I caught the exaggeration... but it still shows that you think that Clare is weak because of how she has been presented in the series, majorly because of opinions that have been started from the Organization and subsequently the rest of the characters.Quote:
Originally Posted by shinta|hikari
The point I was trying to make was that first, Clare is a test subject so no one knows what she really is capable of or what strength she may have sleeping inside her. Secondly, was that you can't compare the ranks of Rigardo with the ranks of the current Claymore era, it's absurd. Third, not all Claymores evolve the same way when they Awake.
So the main point is that there are millions of possibilities on why Clare can be faster than Rigardo, and it doesn't have to be explained by the series because it's very evident that no one in the series itself is really sure of what is going on or on the real nature of Yomas, Claymores, and Awakened Beings... so us trying to figure something out without any substantiative evidence is pretty much a lost cause. Since the beggining of the series, all these creatures and beings were presented to the viewers as unknown and mysterious beings and it should stay that way simply because after decades/centuries the characters themselves are still figuring out what they are. So there can be no wrong on how a character excels her "limits", mainly because the character themselves don't know what they are talking about and they can't be trusted. So no illogical powerup here because there's no way to disprove it or approve it, it just is.
It's like Blade and Vampires, he has the best of both worlds. Doesn't really explain why he's usually stronger than the rest of Vampires, but he simply is and you have to accept it as such.
You have a point about Clare being a test subject, but logic dictates (as well as having been implied in the show) that having less youma in you means being less powerful. Its not just her reputation. People seeing her in battle for the first time automatically comment on how weak she is, be it speed, power, youki, youki control, and even battle skill. Its just fact, accept it. What made claymore great for me is how she managed to win against such odds- logically.
We may not be able to accurately compare Rigardo's era with Clare's era, but thats not what I was doing. I was comparing Rigardo to Clare, and from the comments between people seeing them in action, the legend is obviously stronger than the dropout (she literally is, the only reasons she isnt so weak in actual combat is because of her ability to sense youki, flash sword, and semi-awakened state <all of which should have no direct influence on the raw power of her awakened form> - which in Clare's case has been stated to enable her to exceed her limit and that alone). Even if we dont really know how powerful Rigardo was as a claymore, its obvious that the strength of the claymore determines the strength of its awakened form. Now, compare the awakened ones weve seen so far (ie. Ophelia) to Rigardo. If you can think straight then the answer is obvious.
Your third point was exactly my theory. If Clare evolved in such a way that she was focused on speed, it would give sense to the whole battle. Sadly, they did not mention this (or anything like it), making it an unexplained powerup instead. It might be explained next episode though.
Millions of ways? Are you crazy? There are numerous reasons for her NOT to be faster than Rigardo, and these have all been presented in the show. Its only normal to explain an occurence if the reasons for it are not obvious (in this case impossible to tell from our perspective), or if the occurence itself is very unlikely (like Clare beating Rigardo). They didnt do this. That was my complaint.
I think you misunderstood my earlier post about this. I wasnt demanding an explanation from you guys. I was pointing out that they failed to explain it. I am demanding an explantion from the creators. How you can mistake that for asking for answers that obviously cannot be answered is another mystery.
If youre simply trying to say that "since people in claymore dont know a thing about themselves so its OK if they cant explain it to us", that is what I call poor storytelling. All the other powerups Clare has received has been explained one way or another. This simply goes against common sense, and if they are going to do that, they should at least TRY to explain it.This is the most outrageous one, and your saying to just accept it as is? Either my standards are too high, or yours are too low. Either way no loss for me.
EDIT - By the way, its an illogical powerup because it doesnt make sense (since what is logically supposed to happen didnt happen), and there is no explanation given to prove it to be logical. Oh, and by the way YOUR logic goes (your reasoning using Blade and comparing it to this development in claymore), even if Clare suddenly gains super strength and an invulnerable body and flies faster than a speeding bullet, its OK since it can be explained in millions of ways because we really dont know shit. Oh, I almost forgot, and it just is.
Those were just some assumptions you and some people here have made, that doesn't make it true or accurate. It's misleading you to think that way and why the organization made her the 47th Claymore in the first place, because they know pretty much what we know, which ammounts to pretty much nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by shinta|hikari
Ophelia was pretty strong as an awakened being, and we didn't see her true potential, she let Clare beat her pretty much. Plus Clare is much stronger than she was back then, just from her experience in this current battle alone, so you can't really compare those two instances. Ophelia could've and I'm sure she would've been able to kick Rigardo's ass if she really wanted to go all out, but she was also in a state of denial and what not, so we can't measure how strong she was. Again, all you can do is speculate, but you can't fault a series of events just because your speculations and assumptions are proven wrong in the series.Quote:
We may not be able to accurately compare Rigardo's era with Clare's era, but thats not what I was doing. I was comparing Rigardo to Clare, and from the comments between people seeing them in action, the legend is obviously stronger than the dropout (she literally is, the only reasons she isnt so weak in actual combat is because of her ability to sense youki, flash sword, and semi-awakened state - which in Clare's case has been stated to enable her to exceed her limit and that alone). Even if we dont really know how powerful Rigardo was as a claymore, its obvious that the strength of the claymore determines the strength of its awakened form. Now, compare the awakened ones weve seen so far (ie. Ophelia) to Rigardo. If you can think straight then the answer is obvious.
Who cares if the powerup is explained. As I've made a point of my discussion to show to you how dumb and uninformed the characters in the series are, how can you expect an explanation for the occurrances? What we'll see is some half-assed guess by the characters, but that doesn't mean it's true which is my point.Quote:
Your third point was exactly my theory. If Clare evolved in such a way that she was focused on speed, it would give sense to the whole battle. Sadly, they did not mention this (or anything like it), making it an unexplained powerup instead. It might be explained next episode though.
I know you weren't demanding an explanation from us, you're complaining about the series not explaining it to you. Well tough luck, not everything needs to be explained, just for the nature of these creatures and beings being a unknown in the series, no one will be able to explain it. Characters will have their theories and what not, but again they don't know shit so you can't expect every detail to be explained to us.Quote:
Millions of ways? Are you crazy? There are numerous reasons for her NOT to be faster than Rigardo, and these have all been presented in the show. Its only normal to explain an occurence if the reasons for it are not obvious (in this case impossible to tell from our perspective), or if the occurence itself is very unlikely (like Clare beating Rigardo). They didnt do this. That was my complaint.
I think you misunderstood my earlier post about this. I wasnt demanding an explanation from you guys. I was pointing out that they failed to explain it. I am demanding an explantion from the creators. How you can mistake that for asking for answers that obviously cannot be answered is another mystery.
It's not poor storytelling, it's you making wrong assumptions all over the place. I don't see how Clare awakening her legs and being faster than Rigardo lacks common sense. Some people are fast and some people are simply faster, there's no need to explain that. Hey, Clare just farted... hmm, I guess we need an explanation for that because as far as we know the show hasn't shown that Claymores are capable of farting, especially since she hasn't eaten recently! Damnit, horrible storytelling!Quote:
If youre simply trying to say that "since people in claymore dont know a thing about themselves so its OK if they cant explain it to us", that is what I call poor storytelling. All the other powerups Clare has received has been explained one way or another. This simply goes against common sense, and if they are going to do that, they should at least TRY to explain it.This is the most outrageous one, and your saying to just accept it as is? Either my standards are too high, or yours are too low. Either way no loss for me
The logical thing to happen that didn't happen only appears that way because you keep having this wrong assumptions on how things work. The story is presented by it's characters, and the information the characters have is flawed and inaccurate, so the story can't present you with the explanation you want to make you feel better. It's not that we don't know shit, is that the characters themselves don't know shit. It's not that the universe the story is set in can't explain the occurances, the problem is that there's no one there capable of explaining it. Was the Earth not round when there was no one on Earth capable of explaining it was round?Quote:
By the way, its an illogical powerup because it doesnt make sense (since what is logically supposed to happen didnt happen), and there is no explanation given to prove it to be logical. Oh, and by the way YOUR logic goes (your reasoning using Blade and comparing it to this development in claymore), even if Clare suddenly gains super strength and an invulnerable body and flies faster than a speeding bullet, its OK since it can be explained in millions of ways because we really dont know shit. Oh, I almost forgot, and it just is.
Miria is completely worthless against Rigardo now, if she went out she would probably be cut down instantly. Considering completely undamaged Claymores like Flora and Undine got killed instantly, even being slightly wounded probably reduces Miria's effectiveness to somewhere south of throwing napkins at him.
EDIT: I didn't realize there was another page after Bud's post on the previous one.
This has actually been the premise of the entire series. The Claymores always play between a balance. Releasing their yoki in order to destroy yoma. The process inexorably turns them into monsters themselves, as we saw even from episode two. But the truth is that they no next to nothing about themselves.Quote:
"since people in claymore dont know a thing about themselves so its OK if they cant explain it to us", that is what I call poor storytelling.
All the polar shifts in the series come from characters suddenly finding out how wrong they are. The series starts with the viewers at Raki's point of view. He knows absolutely nothing, other than Claymore's are all female, they are called monsters by the people, and they kill monsters. Through Clare explaining things to Raki, we learn there is more to what they do and how they do it. Then through Rubel's explanation to Raki, we learn the fate of all Claymores.
After the Holy City, the focus of the series shifts to Clare learning about Claymores through Teresa. We find out everything we always knew to be true was completely and utterly wrong. Claymore's don't turn into yoma like so many of the lower ranked Claymore's believe, they turn into something far worse. We learn that Clare is considered "the weakest." We learn that Clare was granted her request because she volunteered, and that they had hoped she'd retain Teresa's strengths. In the Slashers Arc, Helen, Miria and Deneve discover that combat skills are not everything when Clare reveals the efforts of her training.
Then Clare learns about what has happened to her and the rest of the Slashers. There's another facet to Awakening. One Miria only suspected. Miria says more than just that. "If you knew what I found out about the Organization, you wouldn't be able to go back." As yet, she hasn't revealed what secret she knows, to anyone. The next huge revelation is Irene not being dead. Something the audience "knew" since we saw her lose to Priscilla. After that is Riful, another previously unknown facet of Awakening to Clare.
Most of the characters know next to nothing about themselves, or the world they live in. Riful implies she knows a great deal more than she probably should, but even she doesn't know everything. She doesn't know Easley's motivation, what Clare's full capabilities are, what Easley and the third Abyssal One's capabilities are, etc (more I can't say without spoiling).
There are so many unknowns in Claymore, that it's hard to assume anything follows reason. Being unable to explain so many things is how the series keeps us wanting more. The goals have been simple, 1. Kill Priscilla 2. Rescue Raki. The strangeness of what makes a Claymore, why they Awaken to be far stronger than human or yoma, what "facts" all the characters are so sure about at any time. All interwoven around the two simple goals.
@Munsu - Man youre a bad loser. All you said in that last post is "We are ill-informed, so we cant really say anything is right or wrong." The information given in the show WILL lead to assumptions, and that is the whole point. Good storytelling leads us to conclusions that are consistent with what happens. Are you trying to say that its all good that they didnt explain a thing about this case? If that is so, your standards really are low.
So youre trying to say that Clare is stronger than Rigardo when she was a claymore? Well, at least you are implying that as a possbility. Come on, thats a long shot and you know it. Its practically impossible, since our perception of Clare is no longer based on assumptions like you say. Weve seen her fighting for 23 episodes now for crying out loud. Do you really think its possible she is stronger than Rigardo (at least base power, since techniques dont really matter in awakening)? If you do, I literally pity you.
Your comment on Ophelia is full of assumptions, and ones that dont make much sense even if you ask other viewers. Your probably going to say that other viewers dont know much, but viewers JUDGE the show, and its quite obvious that your wild claims regarding Ophelia is just nutty. Rigardo>Ophelia, thats what the show implied. Lets see who disagrees with this except you. Yes, Clare did get stronger, and she also got owned in the fight before she awakened her legs. Compare that to her fight with Ophelia. This serves as a measuring stick. I cant believe I have to explain this.
Your fart analogy is absolutely idiotic. You know that doesnt apply, unlike how my superman analogy fits perfectly with you excusing every mistake this show could possibly make in terms of explaining events and revealing facts. Explanations are REQUIRED for SOME things, and this is one of those things.
The premise in this show is (and I know its not boldly stated, but it was heavily implied, and obvious to anyone) that stronger claymores lead to stronger awakened beings. So far, speed is key in fighting, and thus translated to strength, so its quite natural that people (like me, and probably even you) got surprised that Clare became that fast (faster than Rigardo, who, even if it is stating the obvious, was insanely fast). Youre saying that this doesnt need to be explained since its common sense? You were just saying a post earlier that IT CANT BE EXPLAINED because we were lacking information. What are you trying to say really?
@Ryll - I agree that the previous parts of claymore did a good job of keeping stuff mysterious, and making people want more. But can you honestly say that a powerup like this makes sense if it isnt explained? Even the semi-awakened state is explained, albeit not an absolute explanation since it is shown that characters are not all-knowing (that is a good thing). So, I will clarify. I am asking for an explanation from the creators simply because what happened was too unlikely, and did not make sense if we base it on previous events. It doesnt really matter if the explanation they give is the correct one (because we can never really tell), but right now we are completely in the dark, and if they dont provide us with anything to go on (that makes sense at least) its bad storytelling. If they explain it in the next episode (be it the true reason or not, or even an implication would do), then there should be no problem.
EDIT - By the way, before Ophelia realized that she became an AB, she was fighting Clare seriously (without confusion), and Clare even managed to gain the upper hand using the flash sword. If Clare was weaker then as "Munsu" assumes, it is even more unlikely that Ophelia is stronger than Rigardo.
@Ryll - by the way, your quote from my post is incomplete. If you include the whole thing, you will understand what I was trying to say, without my explanation in this post. Heck, Ill say it again anyway - some things are OK if not explained, some things, no. They cant just excuse everything and anything to ignorance, even if that is apt to some stuff in the show.
I wanted to hear Rigardo purr =|
But when the information you've gathered has been given from ill-informed sources, those assumptions you've made are bound to be incorrect.Quote:
Originally Posted by shinta|hikari
I'm not saying that Claymore Clare was stronger than a Claymore Rigardo, but I do see it as a possibility because there's an X factor inside of Clare, which is Teresas flesh. The Organization has assumed that this makes her weaker, but there's the possibility that it actually makes her stronger for whatever reason.Quote:
So youre trying to say that Clare is stronger than Rigardo when she was a claymore? Well, at least you are implying that as a possbility. Come on, thats a long shot and you know it. Its practically impossible, since our perception of Clare is no longer based on assumptions like you say. Weve seen her fighting for 23 episodes now for crying out loud. Do you really think its possible she is stronger than Rigardo? If you do, I literally pity you.
I made no assumptions about Ophelia, I only presented some possibilities. And I'm sure everyone here will agree that Ophelia let Clare win the fight and/or that she didn't fight to her full potential, and it's clearly evident. She was still in a state of denial, even after realizing what she was. You're also comparing a level-headed Rigardo who has been Awakened for who knows how long, and has been under the tutulage of Easly to a confused Ophelia that doesn't know shit about herself, only that she has tentacles and wants guts.Quote:
Your comment on Ophelia is full of assumptions, and ones that dont make much sense even if you ask other viewers. Your probably going to say that other viewers dont know much, but viewers JUDGE the show, and its quite obvious that your wild claims regarding Ophelia is just nutty. Rigardo>Ophelia, thats what the show implied. Lets see who disagrees with this except you. Yes, Clare did get stronger, and she also got owned in the fight before she awakened her legs. Compare that to her fight with Ophelia. This serves as a measuring stick. I cant believe I have to explain this.
I was exaggerating, I thought I'd tried it that way since you like to exaggerate things to see if I could make you understand.Quote:
Your fart analogy is absolutely idiotic. You know that doesnt apply, unlike how my superman analogy fits perfectly with you excusing every mistake this show could possibly make in terms of explaining events and revealing facts. Explanations are REQUIRED for SOME things, and this is one of those things.
Still Clare is not your normal Claymore just as it has been stated by me about 10 times already and by the anime, she's an experiment, a test. Some things will simply not fit with your previous assumtions based on other Claymores.Quote:
The premise in this show is (and I know its not boldly stated, but it was heavily implied, and obvious to anyone) that stronger claymores lead to stronger awakened beings. So far, speed is key in fighting, and thus translated to strength, so its quite natural that people (like me, and probably even you) got surprised that Clare became that fast (faster than Rigardo, who, even if it is stating the obvious, was insanely fast). Youre saying that this doesnt need to be explained since its common sense? You were just saying a post earlier that IT CANT BE EXPLAINED because we were lacking information. What are you trying to say really?
What am I trying to say really? Are you serious or you just can't read? What I'm saying is that your assumptions about Clare are fucking wrong and that the freaking characters are all uninformed and misinformed about the nature of Yomas/Claymores/Awakened Beings so to expect and demand an explanation from them is, as you would say, idiotic. And just because some dumb fucks of characters in the series won't be able to explain it, it won't make what just occurred illogical.
Youre the one that cant read. You even skipped the whole paragraph about contradicting yourself. You are really good at ignoring some stuff, while I actually take the trouble to reply to every argument you make.
Youre just avoiding the whole Ophelia thing. Just because she didnt fight her "full" potential (which you cant really tell) doesnt mean she didnt fight seriously enough to gauge her strength. Even Rigardo didnt fight his full potential throughout that fight, since at first he wasnt taking it seriously, and in the end he lost an arm due to it. This isnt even an assumption anymore, Rigardo>Ophelia is pretty much proven.
Anyway, you missed my whole point. All that other stuff you mentioned in that last post is that we dont know a thing. You automatically label speculations based on the events in the show as inaccurate or cannot be proven. You dont offer any alternatives, and merely justify your claim that the recent development does not need to be explained just because it IS. My whole point is, even IF my assumptions are accurate (I believe that they are, and many will probably agree with me) or not, the show gave that impression, not just to me, but in general. The viewers are lacking info, so they fill that up with speculation from what is revealed in the show. From such speculation, the latest powerup seems illogical, and just for that reason and that alone I am saying that an explantion is required, otherwise, Claymore would fall into the crappy pool of shounen stuff out there (I said this in my first post on this topic, just in case you think Im making this up). If you dont think so, I think you are way too forgiving of Claymore, and that for me translates to low standards (specifically the lack of being critical) in watching.
My assumptions arent "fucking" wrong, sorry. They just havent been proven right yet. If you dont think so, go ahead and disprove them. You saying that already makes you lose this argument. You have contradicted yourself twice now. Expecting an explanation isnt idiotic. Its what I think to be needed in this case, and the reasons have been stated. You dont even give reasons. You just say that I shouldnt expect an explanation because the characters are ill-informed. That doesnt even make sense. Just because they are ill-informed doesnt make them incapable of giving make-shift explanations (like they did on practically every other part of the show). If they just accept this sudden boost as it is (if they themselves dont find it strange and illogical, and needing of an explanation ie. the slashers arc - semi-awakened status explanation), its simply not good presentation.
EDIT - And about the Clare vs. Rigardo claymore thing, you dont even seem convinced yourself about the possibility you are talking about. Its just too far-fetched, much too far-fetched, than simply giving in and admitting that Rigardo IS stronger than Clare from what weve seen.
Oh, and about the last thing you mentioned about Clare being different from other claymores (and the fact that it has been mentioned like 10x), that actually makes sense (as an excuse for her being abnormally fast) but it is not a clear conclusion, since like you said, it actually contradicts the other facts presented about claymores in the show. If they give something specific here, like say, since Clare is "different" in this way or that way, she can do this (specifically be faster than Rigardo in this case), Ill be satisfied.
Whats so wrong about wanting an explanation for something like this? I cant believe you are taking this argument so far.