Arrest for Dancing in Jefferson's Memorial

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Originally Posted by Kraco

in our societies there would be less problems if those who happen to find themselves in a minority considering some minor issue wouldn't always make a huge personal problem out of it, as if it was a clandestine scheme by the majority to hunt down whatever minority. Like these dancers who looked like they felt it was a personal insult to them that dancing in a solemn public place was forbidden - despite most visitors likely finding that rule to be of zero consequence or even beneficial. Not that most visitors would ever even hear of it.

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It's the principle of the matter, Kraco.

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Originally Posted by Kraco

Logic dictates the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

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That works mathematically, but taking a universal truth to achieve one's own ends at the cost of others is illogical and irrational for the health of a society.

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Originally Posted by Kraco

This is the very core principle of democracy. Democracy isn't by far perfect but at the moment it's the least bad of the useful types of governments.

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Agreed that it is less evil on the evil government spectrum. That doesn't mean that democracy is the be all end all, though. There are better solutions. Instead of accepting the status quo, wouldn't it be nice to try to make things better? "It doesn't matter so much where we are as where we are going..."

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Originally Posted by Sapphire

I feel that this premise is a very slippery slope. It seems to imply that living in one's own house is a privilege, or that the state gives one permission to live here. It's almost like when an angry father says, "This is my house and my rules, if you don't like it, leave". Instead, I consider the house I own to be my own private property, or the place I rent out to be a private contract between me and the tenant. The "if you don't like it, leave" idea seems to imply that the state has some sort of proprietary ownership of the land I live on.

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Sorry, I didn't mean to sound like I was giving an ultimatum there. I just wanted to point out the options one is faced with when living in a system that they find dissatisfactory:
1) Decide to accept the system and ignore the source of dissatisfaction.
2) Take action and change the system and eliminate the source of dissatisfaction.
3) Move to where one is no longer affected by the system.
4) Complain but do nothing and be forever dissatisfied about the system.

I just don't want you to be stuck at #4 because that just leads to bitterness and anger and makes your life miserable. The last thing I want is to see you being miserable, with no end in sight. And I know that you won't take options 1 or 3, so you're left with option 2. I want to encourage you to come up with a plan to enact change. Because in all seriousness, I believe you can do it. You easily draw people to you to support the things that you're passionate about and you are a strong debater. History is made by ordinary people who stepped up because they couldn't let an issue slide and had to do something about it.

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Originally Posted by KitKat

2) Take action and change the system and eliminate the source of dissatisfaction.

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Originally Posted by KitKat

4) Complain but do nothing and be forever dissatisfied about the system.

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Originally Posted by KitKat

I just don't want you to be stuck at #4 because that just leads to bitterness and anger and makes your life miserable. The last thing I want is to see you being miserable, with no end in sight.

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Originally Posted by KitKat

you're left with option 2. I want to encourage you to come up with a plan to enact change. Because in all seriousness, I believe you can do it. You easily draw people to you to support the things that you're passionate about and you are a strong debater. History is made by ordinary people who stepped up because they couldn't let an issue slide and had to do something about it.

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Originally Posted by Sapphire

this is how society evolves. This works by exposing evil via talking, recording it, revealing it for what it is, discussion, etc.

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Spreading the word enacts change.

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Originally Posted by KitKat

History is made by ordinary people who stepped up because they couldn't let an issue slide and had to do something about it.

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That's wrong. Ordinary people are those who choose 1 or 4, sometimes 3. Those who choose 2 and succeed are judged out of the ordinary by history. But since it's the topic of the day, let's not forget that once you manage to change something, you will create a new minority dissatisfied by what your achievement created. So the vicious circle continues.

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Originally Posted by Kraco

But since it's the topic of the day, let's not forget that once you manage to change something, you will create a new minority dissatisfied by what your achievement created. So the vicious circle continues.

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The only people who will be dissatisfied with the destruction of oppression are the people who want to oppress you.

Well, I wholeheartedly endorse your efforts. I admit to being somewhat emotionally detached from this debate because it's not an issue which is really pressing on my heart and mind. We all have to pick and choose our battles, because we have limited resources and there are a million worthy causes to support or areas where change is needed. I'm totally going to change the world too, so keep an eye out ^_^

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Originally Posted by Sapphire

The only people who will be dissatisfied with the destruction of oppression are the people who want to oppress you.

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I guess I'm the kind of guy who would want to visit a memorial site without dancers hanging around, even if it means I'm oppressing people wanting to dance anywhere and everywhere.

More seriously, I also support police being able to use non-lethal force after ample verbal warnings. Because this world is full of punks who have nothing better to do than to make other people's work harder by trying to rely on rights that weren't written with hooligans in mind. Generally speaking permits for peaceful demonstrations are rather easily granted, and that's the way to go if you want to perform proper demonstrations and not be a punk.

Applying for a permit to dance is the same as asking the government for permission to protest against its actions. Doesn't really make sense if one doesn't believe the government has the authority to decide this.

I truly belief that systems cant be changed from within the system. The very nature of any system is to mantain stability and the status quo for their rulling classes both political and financial. The ones that should do the voting to change the system would be the first ones affected by it, loosing priviledges and power. So its pretty infantile to hope for them to willingly take action against themselfs.

In democracy they simply play with the comptent of the majority loosing some rope when things get rough and is needed, and strangling them when their calm & sleepy, or worst when they are affraid. Lately Ive come to realize what a powerful weapon fear makes into society.

The true thing is that in the 1st world we live in a class system, call it Democracy/Plutocracy/Partitocracy/Oclocracy or whatever you want, wich leaves the political and financial powers at the privileged side and the rest on the other. Any move you make against any privilege those class have will make them gather together to tumble it down. Didn't you ever heard about how easily the antagonic political parties come to agreement when it comes to privileges for them and their employers?? Like not being able to be prosecuted for many kind of errors and delicts, their lifetime legal/medical coverages,tax exemptions, lack of some civil responsabilities, etc.

I'm conciouss of how privileged I'm comparing to maybe 90% of earths population but I always thought that if things from my point of view are bad and could be a lot better in my country what wouldnt those others feel? It sadens me.

Wow this has reached 5 pages, Im surprised. Its not really complicated, these people were acting like pricks and were arrested for such. Its not like the civil rights movement, where an entire race was being treated cruelly. This is a simple case of of "dont dance here" and "fuck da POLICE". Usually Im on the side of the latter, but the dancers are just being annoying pricks in this case. The cops even asked the demonstrators to stop several times.

Sorry to say this, but i don't think Sappihire has a point to defend anymore. This has gone from one thing to another.

I guess democracy is what she thinks it to be and everything else is wrong.

Fact of the matter is "detainees" were arrested because they ignored the warning of the police but not just that, they exacerbated the situation by blatantly disregarding the warnings of the police and even provoked them.

Save the Rosa Parks civil rights quotes for something that's worth it.

I don't think you actually read anything I wrote because you failed to address anything I (or everyone else) actually said. We've passed the point of "the officers said to do it and they didn't so they got what was coming to them" and started looking at the implications of that method of thought.

i love america

You're right I didn't read every single post because i got tired of reading about the glorification of a bunch of idiots like they are some martyr. What what the point of this thread in the first place?

If this was a starting point for a debate on one's right, I think you picked a poor example. There are many laws other there that are ridiculous and often made funny of; you can even find tv shows that point them out to you. But the fact of the matter is they are laws. If you have a problems with it change it, don't just go breaking it. Don't call a moronic act a protest, just because some idiot said it was.

I'm sorry for putting a damper on your little activists thread here. Just was calling an ass an ass and not trying to make it out like it was some other kind of animal.

I won't bother to post in this thread again. Now back to your regularly scheduled rant.

Edit:

AssAssIn: Fucking Canadian...... I love Canada too.



Just one last comment if you would permit. People; which includes police and other civil servants, use common sense everyday and do the right thing, you just don't see it on youtube or posted on the web.

I just finished reading A Clockwork Orange and it's message about crime and punishment and social control. I think you all should read it to gain a better perspective on this situation.

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Originally Posted by dragonrage

But the fact of the matter is they are laws. If you have a problems with it change it, don't just go breaking it.

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I simply can't comprehend mindlessly following rules that I know are arbitrarily oppressive. It sounds like you're glorifying the "law" just because it's the "law," saying it's something to be obeyed NO MATTER WHAT. How can you possibly live like that in this day and age?

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Originally Posted by dragonrage

You're right I didn't read every single post because i got tired of reading about the glorification of a bunch of idiots like they are some martyr. What what the point of this thread in the first place?

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And that you think that people deserve to be arrested for being annoying is so mind boggling that I now feel debating with you further is pointless.

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Originally Posted by Sapphire

I simply can't comprehend mindlessly following rules that I know are arbitrarily oppressive. It sounds like you're glorifying the "law" just because it's the "law," saying it's something to be obeyed NO MATTER WHAT. How can you possibly live like that in this day and age?



And that you think that people deserve to be arrested for being annoying and not bending over for the police is so mind boggling that I now feel debating with you further is pointless.

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I really didn't want to post in this thread again.

It is a MEMORIAL.

Memorial:
something designed to preserve the memory of a person, event, etc., as a monument or a holiday.

It is a place where people from all over the country and over the world go to visit to honor the memory of a man the helped shap America into what it was then and what it is today. I don't know if you have ever been to the Jefferson Memorial but it is a small area considering how many people visit it at certain times of the year. and at time can be very crowded and having a bunch of idiots dancing around can cause unnecessary problems, such as scuffles, such as fights and even brawls. Excluding the fact that the place is a memorial and a bit out of the way from the rest of the memorials or the fact that is a memorial and causing an uproar is distasteful and takes away from the reason it was built there it the first place or why it was built.

Why didn't the people you so adamantly defend choose the Constitution gardens, the Washington Monument or any other Memorial that has a wider area as their venue? Why didn't they just "protest" and dance all they wanted just outside of the memorial leaving it so that other people can enjoy it?

Do you support this type of behavior?

Yes I think thet should have been arrested because if one of them in their arrogance had hit or injured someone it would have escalated into something even bigger. It is called preventing a problem.

Where is your common sense?

I really don't care what people do inside the memorial as long as it's not harmful towards others. It's public property. But in another sense I support their actions based on the implications that they reveal. Regardless of me thinking what they are doing is stupid or not, it is absolutely wrong to sick a cop on them just because they make the atmosphere more annoying.

I highly doubt that slow dancing or dancing to head phones could cause a riot.

It didn't seem crowded at all from the video, but let's say it was crowded. In that case dancing EVERYWHERE that's crowded would be banned. Does that sound reasonable to you?

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Originally Posted by dragonrage

It is a MEMORIAL.

...words...

Do you support this type of behavior?

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If you agree with that ridiculous law in any way, shape, or form, you need to reassess your perspective and stop defending the law for the sake of the law. Don't try to justify it. It's not up to the government to decide how people pay their respects in a public area.

That's what Sapphire is saying, and I am 100% in agreement with her. I had no idea the law existed and now I am somewhat glad that attention has been brought to it so that it can be thrown out.

However, the morons in question still acted childish, accomplished nothing, and resisted arrest. The police were 100% justified in EVERY action they took during that video. This is plain to see, and has nothing to do with the greater argument, nor does it have anything to do with police brutality, abuse of power, or any other legitimate violations of human or civil rights.

I think that if you know a law is stupid but you follow it anyway, you are legitimizing and validating the power that the lawmaker claims to have over you.