Episode 34 (may contain SPOILERS)

[Shinji Ikari]

Originally posted by: Jurojin

Originally posted by: Shinji Ikari


Yeah, and some people goes mad and kill everyone he thinks is wrong without knowing anything about anything or anyone. He has a twisted sence of justice and prooves it by doing stupid things over and over again on the battle field.

Come on, so you mean that by law, if a persons relative or close friend is killed, the person has the right to go around avenging the loved one? Why do you think we have laws against those kinds of things nowaday? (Because some countries didn't always have laws like that but actually encouraged revenge for the justification of the familys honor)

No, everyone has to grab themselves by the balls and pull themselves back to reality, because no matter what, doing things for the reasons that Shinn is doing them, that is just wrong, and we all see that he is a nut-case in every action he takes.

I never said anything about "by law." Try looking past your own face and see the reality of the situation. Baka.


*breathe* I was not saying his actions are right and just. I never did. What I WAS saying, and people seem to stupidly ignore this whenever the topic comes up, is that NOBODY is bound by the same code of ethics, the same sense of right and wrong, as other people. Just because you think it's wrong of him to do the things he does, doesn't mean he has to think that way. In his mind, he feels he's doing the right thing: fighting LOGOS and the people responsible for the pain Stellar had through her life (experimentation crap), fighting the one he sees as responsible for the death of his comrades and loved ones (right or not).

No, everyone does NOT have to be rational. It would be nice, it would make the world a better place, but nobody HAS to do it. You're showing your naivety, and your Kira-loving and pro-Shinn-bashing, by taking this stance.

Yeah, everyone has his own etics and reactions, but after that? One has to take control of his life to realize that his behaviour up til that point has been wrong.

>>>No one gives him or AA the right
That depends on your def. of "right". What gives Zaft and the EAF the "right" to go to war and to kill each other?<<<

No, they gave themselves the right to interfere because they know that what they are doing is to help end the war, it doesn't really help that EAF and ZAFt is throwing in more guns in the fire to make it pop even louder. Dullindal claims to be fighting for justice, Logos also claims to fight for justice... So why is everyone fighting? This is stupid... The only reason AA started fighting was because Zaft and EAF started fighting, thus, AA can't be wrong because they aren't taking sides but fighting for both... Kira has saved countless by shooting a lot of MS down and he has also saved the Minerva, Orb military... He saves lives that EAF and ZAFT is destroying...

No one gave him the right or told him this is what you need to do. He and AA tries to save everyone withour trying to gain anything from this war whilst both EAF and ZAFT leaders are trying to gain something.. The ones who does something without thinking of themselves must be the ones that are correct when trying to save something. Because they all claim that is what they want.

Originally posted by: heero

Saying that it is wrong to follow orders with a smile on his face but it would be right for Kira to do the same with a sad face (I know he hasnt in GSD but he did in GS) is abit weak of an arguement. I still dont think it is wrong for what Shinn has done so far but rather he is turning to a maniac you could say.

Why is it weak?

And that exactly what is so wrong with Shinn, he is mad, he is insane and needs help. Which one would you rather have, a person who just loves to shoot people or the one who does it because he is told to?

My argument is not weak because it is based upon how actions and war are born... With people like Shinn, war could never end and with people like Kira war is fought for everyone to end with the smallest amount of damage... That is where the difference in following an order with a smile and with a sad face changes so much.

[Jurojin]

Yeah, everyone has his own etics and reactions, but after that? One has to take control of his life to realize that his behaviour up til that point has been wrong

[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-disgusted.gif[/img]

Wow, you just have a one track mind, don't you. You admit you're wrong, but then stick with the same unreasonable line.


Ok, I'll be Shinn's advocate for a moment: "I am a soldier for ZAFT. My job is to stop the enemy, whomever it may be at the time."

That right there justifies, to himself at least, every life taken in combat, as well as his attempt to kill Kira.

on a more personal level "My family was killed in part due to war and the government's choice to make our country hostile ground, which is a result of their attempts to do nothing towards one side or the other at war. the EAF has tortured and scarred Stellar with their experiments, and was later killed by Freedom. (in his mind, though the details of her death are debated here). I must destroy the EAF/LOGOS for their atrocites, and Freedom for being reponsible for the death of my friends."

There, so far most of what he's done has been rationalized and justified IN HIS MIND.

I dare you to come up with a reason that someone with that mindset should "Suddenly realize what he's been doing is wrong" that does not include your own sense of right and wrong forced on him. In the situation that he's in, with the experiances that he's had, with the mindset I've described, there is absolutly no reason he should change his stance or ways that doesn't include "Well, he's wrong in my mind and in what I see to be the grand scheme of things."

[heero]

Originally posted by: Shinji Ikari

Originally posted by: Jurojin

Originally posted by: Shinji Ikari


Yeah, and some people goes mad and kill everyone he thinks is wrong without knowing anything about anything or anyone. He has a twisted sence of justice and prooves it by doing stupid things over and over again on the battle field.

Come on, so you mean that by law, if a persons relative or close friend is killed, the person has the right to go around avenging the loved one? Why do you think we have laws against those kinds of things nowaday? (Because some countries didn't always have laws like that but actually encouraged revenge for the justification of the familys honor)

No, everyone has to grab themselves by the balls and pull themselves back to reality, because no matter what, doing things for the reasons that Shinn is doing them, that is just wrong, and we all see that he is a nut-case in every action he takes.

I never said anything about "by law." Try looking past your own face and see the reality of the situation. Baka.


*breathe* I was not saying his actions are right and just. I never did. What I WAS saying, and people seem to stupidly ignore this whenever the topic comes up, is that NOBODY is bound by the same code of ethics, the same sense of right and wrong, as other people. Just because you think it's wrong of him to do the things he does, doesn't mean he has to think that way. In his mind, he feels he's doing the right thing: fighting LOGOS and the people responsible for the pain Stellar had through her life (experimentation crap), fighting the one he sees as responsible for the death of his comrades and loved ones (right or not).

No, everyone does NOT have to be rational. It would be nice, it would make the world a better place, but nobody HAS to do it. You're showing your naivety, and your Kira-loving and pro-Shinn-bashing, by taking this stance.

Yeah, everyone has his own etics and reactions, but after that? One has to take control of his life to realize that his behaviour up til that point has been wrong.

>>>No one gives him or AA the right
That depends on your def. of "right". What gives Zaft and the EAF the "right" to go to war and to kill each other?<<<

No, they gave themselves the right to interfere because they know that what they are doing is to help end the war, it doesn't really help that EAF and ZAFt is throwing in more guns in the fire to make it pop even louder. Dullindal claims to be fighting for justice, Logos also claims to fight for justice... So why is everyone fighting? This is stupid... The only reason AA started fighting was because Zaft and EAF started fighting, thus, AA can't be wrong because they aren't taking sides but fighting for both... Kira has saved countless by shooting a lot of MS down and he has also saved the Minerva, Orb military... He saves lives that EAF and ZAFT is destroying...

No one gave him the right or told him this is what you need to do. He and AA tries to save everyone withour trying to gain anything from this war whilst both EAF and ZAFT leaders are trying to gain something.. The ones who does something without thinking of themselves must be the ones that are correct when trying to save something. Because they all claim that is what they want.

Originally posted by: heero

Saying that it is wrong to follow orders with a smile on his face but it would be right for Kira to do the same with a sad face (I know he hasnt in GSD but he did in GS) is abit weak of an arguement. I still dont think it is wrong for what Shinn has done so far but rather he is turning to a maniac you could say.

Why is it weak?

And that exactly what is so wrong with Shinn, he is mad, he is insane and needs help. Which one would you rather have, a person who just loves to shoot people or the one who does it because he is told to?

My argument is not weak because it is based upon how actions and war are born... With people like Shinn, war could never end and with people like Kira war is fought for everyone to end with the smallest amount of damage... That is where the difference in following an order with a smile and with a sad face changes so much.

Like you said, Shinn needs help. And what does he get? More and more of his loved ones died. So how can he be the one to blame and how can he be hated. And of course Kira is the ideal personality and can even be compared to God but that kind of thing dont happen in real life. You wont see a person running out in the middle of a war between to countries and tries to stop them because why? That person will end up dead. Kira is acting like he is because the story is suppose to make him like a hero and save the day. While Shinn is more a typical realistic person. If someone goes and kills your whole family, you would want to take revenge on that person too rather than being mister nice guy and tells him to go home and not do it again.

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: Jurojin

A) He HAD to give Stellar to Neo, or she would have died, plain and simple. I know it sucks, but Shinn could either give her to Neo and hope beyond reason that Neo didn't get her killed, or just watch helplessly as a loved one died right next to him. Again. Unless you're thinking that ZAFT would miraculously come up with a way to treat her with limited specialty equipment an a war vessel.

I've said this before if he had any intention of trying to save her he would have done 1 of 2 things. Either Shinn would have surrendered with Stellar or he would have attempted to steal what he needed to keep her alive and ran off somewhere to be with just her. As instead he turned her over to Neo and ran back to the Minerva its my feeling Shinn abandoned her instead of protecting her and in turn gave him a reason to blame someone else if something happened to her.

Originally posted by: Jurojin
B) He was still trying to calm Stellar down. He was focused on her and her mental state, not on what Freedom was doing. If Freedom was not in Stellar's line of vision, she would not have fired her cannons, and Freedom wouldn't have needed to disable Destroy to save Shinn. I'm not saying it's Freedom's fault exactly, as Kira didn't know exactly who and what was going on, but saying that it in any way Shinn's fault is pure fiction. He had her calmed down. She had stopped firing, because of Shinn, and if given some more time, he prolly could have coaxed her out.

Indeed upon learning it was Stellar Shinn attempted to calm her down but only after Kira shot down Neo did it matter. Had Neo not been shot down then Stellar wouldn't have stopped for Shinn and instead if Shinn tried saying anything Neo would have told Stellar that Shinn was bad and trying to kill Stellar. In every case Stellar had chosen Neo over Shinn.

I would also like to say that PSJ definatly has stated the facts earlier on this page about Shinn I have no reason to quote this.

[Jurojin]

or he would have attempted to steal what he needed to keep her alive and ran off somewhere to be with just her

Somehow, I don't think Shinn would be able to determine what was needed to keep her alive. He's not a medical expert, and the ships doctor didn't even have the tech or knowledge to keep Stellar alive. So can we say that this one is a slim and extremely unlikely choice?

[heero]

And surrendering to your enemy is not exactly an ideal choice. You should see what they do to enemy soldiers when they are captured in wars...

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: Jurojin

or he would have attempted to steal what he needed to keep her alive and ran off somewhere to be with just her

Somehow, I don't think Shinn would be able to determine what was needed to keep her alive. He's not a medical expert, and the ships doctor didn't even have the tech or knowledge to keep Stellar alive. So can we say that this one is a slim and extremely unlikely choice?

Originally posted by: heero
And surrendering to your enemy is not exactly an ideal choice. You should see what they do to enemy soldiers when they are captured in wars...

Both of these are unlikely to work the fact is they are more likely then Neo sending his Ace off to work on a bunny farm. The point is his actions were not those of someone trying to protect something but instead those of someone attempting to pass the buck so he doesn't have to take responsability. I would say that having Steller kill tens of thousands of people with destroy was clearly a much better option then doing anything that could instead endanger your own life.

[FelixZeroAlastor]

Originally posted by: DDBen

Originally posted by: Jurojin

or he would have attempted to steal what he needed to keep her alive and ran off somewhere to be with just her

Somehow, I don't think Shinn would be able to determine what was needed to keep her alive. He's not a medical expert, and the ships doctor didn't even have the tech or knowledge to keep Stellar alive. So can we say that this one is a slim and extremely unlikely choice?

Originally posted by: heero
And surrendering to your enemy is not exactly an ideal choice. You should see what they do to enemy soldiers when they are captured in wars...

Both of these are unlikely to work the fact is they are more likely then Neo sending his Ace off to work on a bunny farm. The point is his actions were not those of someone trying to protect something but instead those of someone attempting to pass the buck so he doesn't have to take responsability. I would say that having Steller kill tens of thousands of people with destroy was clearly a much better option then doing anything that could instead endanger your own life.

All right I am sorry but please spare me. He was indeed trying to protect Stellar when he gave her to Neo. At the moment it was a better option than watching her suffer until she gets disected alive or dies on the bed all scared and crying. I don't know about you but I would have done the same thing. He wasn't trying to dodge responsibility. He was doing the only thing that he could do to possibly save her. He couldn't have possibly known that Neo was going to have her slaughter three cities full of innocent people with the Destroy. If you love someone are you just going to let them suffer and be disected when you promised to protect them or are you going to give them back to the only person who could possibly save them. I would choose the second one cause it is what the average sane person would do. If I was Shinn I would probably want revenge on Kira too. Even tough Stellar deserves no kind of forgiveness whatsoever from anyone Shinn loved her and she loved him and love makes you do stupid things. Example: While Kira was fighting Rau he flew straight for Fllay completely ignoring the most dangerous suit on the field at the moment. I 'm not saying this cause I like Shinn just so you know.

[xat]

Interesting how people go about defining what the "typical person" would be like. You can't justify a common mentality so simply. I'd say that pre-GSD, Kira was about as human as... well, myself for one. You're given two points of views, one person may handle the same situation differently, but it doesn't make them ... for lack of better word, atypical. I'm not sure what kind of normal society (this can vary in itself) some live in, but typical nature can be derived from the kind of atmosphere someone is brought up in.

Dare I say, Kira is just as guilty of playing the berserker role as Shinn pre-GSD. When Tolle was killed, Kira's (and even Athrun's) mentality mirrored Shinn's own: kill the enemy for satisfaction. The difference now is that you have someone who has had time to reflect on such cases; I believe Kira strikes a point of wisdom inbetween GS and GSD, whereas Shinn has yet to even stride for any such pinnacle (or realize that he may have to for that matter).

As for who is the better pilot, I certainly don't doubt Shinn's skill. He's probably hit the apex of his performance, although I'm quite interested in how he'd compare to Athrun. Athrun? Yea, well we've already seen that he's about as capable as the benchmark; when he and Kira go at it, they're in a state of brinkmanship and in one instance hit stalemate, which is rather scary. Kira still seems to be the only one who could, uh, pop his seed (eheh) at will, under little pressure and such. The others will pop under pressure or out of extreme emotional cycling. Kira was wrecked in this episode, but I don't believe it justifies the overall level of skill. Perhaps this time Shinn may have been better due to his exploiting Kira's weakness--though it is one that Kira could probably override easily; the desire not to kill costs him pretty badly. Kira factors out enormous target vs. several segmented subsystems for the sake of his opponents and his conscience. We've already seen that he'll still make exceptions in certain situations though (saving Shinn vs. allowing Stellar's rampage to continue)... I think Kira is exceedingly better, although he did get pummeled due to his weakness.

I wouldn't mind seeing Cagalli go at it again, wasn't she able to berserk during the last episodes of GS? A yellow seed? They didn't show enough of that ;-;!

On a lighter note I really like Haro^2 & Tori^2 :-)



^ [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]~~~~~

[Dannynonsense]

most of you guys talking right now are real idiots i mean seriously at this point of the story do you think shinn is the same when GSD first started all that crap he was saying its out the window he has no remorse for his actions blaming everyone else for things that are his fault. you guys are in love with the character too much you talk as if all the things that shinn is doing is right and everthing the AA is doing is wrong, everyone from eaf to zaft in the story is saying there fighting to protect themselves wrong there being manipulated by people who are causing wars for their own gain. so why is what the AA is DOING WRONG. one more thing for those of you who think shinn now wholes supremacy in the GSD shinn lovers just shut up okay clearly that fight BS accept shinn is just a madman whose gonna die