AA probably wins. It has more sturdyness than the minvera
AA probably wins. It has more sturdyness than the minvera
That is a good point, but I will expand on it a little, and branch out.Originally posted by: aznimperialx
AA probably wins. It has more sturdyness than the minvera
The Archangel doesn't seem to have a lot of wasted space, it is fully loaded with weaponry, but not excessivly large. The Minerva on the other hand seems to be larger then it really needs to be. It has to have that seperate area just to store the Impulse's special catapult plus all the various Impulse parts and spares (I still think the Impulse system is rediculous). Since Mobile Suits are banned in this scenario, the whole Impulse thing is a waste of space. With the extra size Minerva doesn't really seem to use it for extra veaponry, it just makes it into a bigger target that is easier to hit. Just looking at the Minerva, it looks awfully similar to the AA except with the front added on. If the front part is destroyed the Minerva may be able to continue to operate, but they would lose a good deal of their weaponry (Tannhauser, Isolade, probably some missle launchers).
Please people, note that the scenario set is a SPACE BATTLE. That is why earlier I mentioned that Archangel's submersive abilities are non-applicable in the fight.
Reason I discounted mobile suits from the battle is because too often have the GUNDAMs been used as deus ex machinas, plot devices that save the day and their power cannot be reliably measured due to Fukuda's imagination which seems to be they can do anything.
That is why the scope of this discussion is limited to capital ship capabilities and the competencies of their crew.
As the instigator of this debate, I hope you will accept me as the one to control the scope of this discussion. Hence if you want to add mobile suits to the mix, please tell me so I can define the situation into a plausible one. For example, if you want to put Asuran and Kira in CIC or gunnery, please do so although I doubt either one knows how to do that job as well as Mirilia or their counterparts.
Anyway, some replies to earlier quotes:
Missle launchers will still work, they're located on the sides, just like Arcnagels is located on its side "fins". But Archangel is the same, too many weapons are aimed forward. Aft side, they have no weaonpry except the CIWS. Oh, AA's railguns can turn so it still can fire from behind. Buts its the least damaging of AA's weapons.Ramius is a veteran captain, with several years experience. She played a curcial role in the last war. Further, she has shown herself to be very competent and to maintain complete composure while under pressure
Actually, she didn't on some occassions. Like I said, she sometimes let emotions take over, such as when Mwu La Flaga was blasted apart by the Dominion (Gundam Seed Phase 50). She completely broke down in the middle of a raging battle, only gathering enough composure to order the Archangel to return fire. Base on her battle with Natarle, I can't say she is great in stategic and tactics as well.
Then again, neither is Talia. Both haven't shown that they're military geniuses, meerly competent captains. But I agree that at least Maryu knows what she is fighting for. Unlike Talia and the kids at Minerva. And she has handled greater pressure than Talia has experienced in the entire Gundam Seed Destiny series, like piloting Archangel since Day One, dropping in the middle of ZAFT territory and fighting all the way to Alaska. Granted Kira was a huge factor but the fact is that she held the crew together like a family.
Talia on the other hand, well, like I said, no personality.
Srike Freedom, I have to disagree with you on the speed advantage of Minerva. She is definitely built more aerodynamic that Archangel's odd shape. As for the comment about Archangel not using boosters to get to space, kindly look again, carefully at the back fins of the Archangel as it took off. You will see that there are some sort of boosters attached there.
Minerva's speed is further proven in episode 40 where they travelled from Gibraltar Spain (not sure which route they took, either way they have to cross either the Asian continent the Americas (doubtful since Atlantic Federation aka USA is controlling hte Americas.)) in only 1 day. Remember that they only left Gibraltar shortly after ZAFT attacked ORB. And the battle didn't even last one day before the Minerva entered the fray. Archangel took a few weeks to reach Alaska from Egypt/Libya. Granted they were repeatedly attacked but nevertheless, the process took 10 episodes, which can be translated into a day each. Minus 5 days worth of attacks and you get a 5 day journey to Alaska.
This is not a very good argument, but its on screen evidence.
Can't believe I'm defending Minerva and its crew of pansies. Oh well, its a bunch of pansies piloting a fast ship that easily beats Archangel in terms of aesthetics.
I stand by my belief that Minerva has the speed advantage. But AA has more guns than Minerva.
If the front part is destroyed the Minerva may be able to continue to operate, but they would lose a good deal of their weaponry (Tannhauser, Isolade, probably some missle launchers).
Originally posted by: naruto22
Please people, note that the scenario set is a SPACE BATTLE. That is why earlier I mentioned that Archangel's submersive abilities are non-applicable in the fight.
Reason I discounted mobile suits from the battle is because too often have the GUNDAMs been used as deus ex machinas, plot devices that save the day and their power cannot be reliably measured due to Fukuda's imagination which seems to be they can do anything.
That is why the scope of this discussion is limited to capital ship capabilities and the competencies of their crew.
As the instigator of this debate, I hope you will accept me as the one to control the scope of this discussion. Hence if you want to add mobile suits to the mix, please tell me so I can define the situation into a plausible one. For example, if you want to put Asuran and Kira in CIC or gunnery, please do so although I doubt either one knows how to do that job as well as Mirilia or their counterparts.
Anyway, some replies to earlier quotes:
Missle launchers will still work, they're located on the sides, just like Arcnagels is located on its side "fins". But Archangel is the same, too many weapons are aimed forward. Aft side, they have no weaonpry except the CIWS. Oh, AA's railguns can turn so it still can fire from behind. Buts its the least damaging of AA's weapons.Ramius is a veteran captain, with several years experience. She played a curcial role in the last war. Further, she has shown herself to be very competent and to maintain complete composure while under pressure
Actually, she didn't on some occassions. Like I said, she sometimes let emotions take over, such as when Mwu La Flaga was blasted apart by the Dominion (Gundam Seed Phase 50). She completely broke down in the middle of a raging battle, only gathering enough composure to order the Archangel to return fire. Base on her battle with Natarle, I can't say she is great in stategic and tactics as well.
Then again, neither is Talia. Both haven't shown that they're military geniuses, meerly competent captains. But I agree that at least Maryu knows what she is fighting for. Unlike Talia and the kids at Minerva. And she has handled greater pressure than Talia has experienced in the entire Gundam Seed Destiny series, like piloting Archangel since Day One, dropping in the middle of ZAFT territory and fighting all the way to Alaska. Granted Kira was a huge factor but the fact is that she held the crew together like a family.
Talia on the other hand, well, like I said, no personality.
Srike Freedom, I have to disagree with you on the speed advantage of Minerva. She is definitely built more aerodynamic that Archangel's odd shape. As for the comment about Archangel not using boosters to get to space, kindly look again, carefully at the back fins of the Archangel as it took off. You will see that there are some sort of boosters attached there.
Minerva's speed is further proven in episode 40 where they travelled from Gibraltar Spain (not sure which route they took, either way they have to cross either the Asian continent the Americas (doubtful since Atlantic Federation aka USA is controlling hte Americas.)) in only 1 day. Remember that they only left Gibraltar shortly after ZAFT attacked ORB. And the battle didn't even last one day before the Minerva entered the fray. Archangel took a few weeks to reach Alaska from Egypt/Libya. Granted they were repeatedly attacked but nevertheless, the process took 10 episodes, which can be translated into a day each. Minus 5 days worth of attacks and you get a 5 day journey to Alaska.
This is not a very good argument, but its on screen evidence.
Can't believe I'm defending Minerva and its crew of pansies. Oh well, its a bunch of pansies piloting a fast ship that easily beats Archangel in terms of aesthetics.
I stand by my belief that Minerva has the speed advantage. But AA has more guns than Minerva.
If the front part is destroyed the Minerva may be able to continue to operate, but they would lose a good deal of their weaponry (Tannhauser, Isolade, probably some missle launchers).
My assumptions are for GSD, not GS. We're talking about the current Seed series. Of course Ramius would not have been composed as she is all her life. BUT in GSD she has yet to lose that composure. I concede that in GS she lost it when Mwu went what seemily seemed bye bye, now resurrected from the dead by Fukada. Yet, my assumption (which I thought was to be understood by everyone) is that this argument is only in terms of the present which would be GSD. So therefore, my argument stands as valid and strong on that assumption.
About the Minerva being faster than the AA, I will change my view on that argument as of the moment. Your argument as well as the others that Minerva should be faster. So it gives the Minerva an advantage. Yet what good was that speed when the Minerva battled the AA in episode 42? This is really a question I pose. The battle seemed pretty even between the two ships, although the AA had a slight advantage cause of the skygrasper. I still stand with the facts that I have given, that the Minerva would most likely lose in battle to the AA from the arguments I posted above.
Quick note: since we are within the bounds of space, the only time aerodynamics applies is when both ships head for space from an atmospheric setting (and vice versa). With no air friction in space, aerodynamics applies far less. I'm thinking that a better arguement would be to take mass into consideration, and how much power it takes to propel that mass (I don't actually know how much each vessel's mass is though).Originally posted by: naruto22
Srike Freedom, I have to disagree with you on the speed advantage of Minerva. She is definitely built more aerodynamic that Archangel's odd shape. As for the comment about Archangel not using boosters to get to space, kindly look again, carefully at the back fins of the Archangel as it took off. You will see that there are some sort of boosters attached there.
Minerva's speed is further proven in episode 40 where they travelled from Gibraltar Spain (not sure which route they took, either way they have to cross either the Asian continent the Americas (doubtful since Atlantic Federation aka USA is controlling hte Americas.)) in only 1 day. Remember that they only left Gibraltar shortly after ZAFT attacked ORB. And the battle didn't even last one day before the Minerva entered the fray. Archangel took a few weeks to reach Alaska from Egypt/Libya. Granted they were repeatedly attacked but nevertheless, the process took 10 episodes, which can be translated into a day each. Minus 5 days worth of attacks and you get a 5 day journey to Alaska.
I wonder if episode 34 can shed some light on the speed thing. Minerva pursues the AA, but the only time it actually shows an 'advantage in speed' is after the AA does a hard turn to avoid a head-on collision with Minerva (Minerva's "catch-up" is shown on-screen from another room), although it could be because AA lost speed due to its maneuver. From that point on, Kira told the crew of the AA to direct it towards the sea, and while doing so maintains a fair distance from the Minerva. Towards the conclusion of the episode, someone from the Minerva crew mentions that they're escaping -- I'd think that if Minerva was faster than the AA, such would not have been the case.
Originally posted by: xat
Quick note: since we are within the bounds of space, the only time aerodynamics applies is when both ships head for space from an atmospheric setting (and vice versa). With no air friction in space, aerodynamics applies far less. I'm thinking that a better arguement would be to take mass into consideration, and how much power it takes to propel that mass (I don't actually know how much each vessel weighs though).Originally posted by: naruto22
Srike Freedom, I have to disagree with you on the speed advantage of Minerva. She is definitely built more aerodynamic that Archangel's odd shape. As for the comment about Archangel not using boosters to get to space, kindly look again, carefully at the back fins of the Archangel as it took off. You will see that there are some sort of boosters attached there.
Minerva's speed is further proven in episode 40 where they travelled from Gibraltar Spain (not sure which route they took, either way they have to cross either the Asian continent the Americas (doubtful since Atlantic Federation aka USA is controlling hte Americas.)) in only 1 day. Remember that they only left Gibraltar shortly after ZAFT attacked ORB. And the battle didn't even last one day before the Minerva entered the fray. Archangel took a few weeks to reach Alaska from Egypt/Libya. Granted they were repeatedly attacked but nevertheless, the process took 10 episodes, which can be translated into a day each. Minus 5 days worth of attacks and you get a 5 day journey to Alaska.
I wonder if episode 34 can shed some light on the speed thing. Minerva pursues the AA, but the only time it actually shows an 'advantage in speed' is after the AA does a hard turn to avoid a head-on collision with Minerva (Minerva's "catch-up" is shown on-screen from another room), although it could be because AA lost speed due to its maneuver. From that point on, Kira told the crew of the AA to direct it towards the sea, and while doing so maintains a fair distance from the Minerva. Towards the conclusion of the episode, someone from the Minerva crew mentions that they're escaping -- I'd think that if Minerva was faster than the AA, such would not have been the case.
Good evidence there, I agree, now my view shifts once again, I will remain neutral on the speed thing...I will do some more research when I have the time...but very good observation
Hmm.... I'd think that they stopped the chase because AA got to the sea before Minerva caught up. Even though Minerva may be faster, if the AA got to the sea, it would be very difficult to hit it with weapons that would be effective.Originally posted by: Strike Freedom
Originally posted by: xat
I wonder if episode 34 can shed some light on the speed thing. Minerva pursues the AA, but the only time it actually shows an 'advantage in speed' is after the AA does a hard turn to avoid a head-on collision with Minerva (Minerva's "catch-up" is shown on-screen from another room), although it could be because AA lost speed due to its maneuver. From that point on, Kira told the crew of the AA to direct it towards the sea, and while doing so maintains a fair distance from the Minerva. Towards the conclusion of the episode, someone from the Minerva crew mentions that they're escaping -- I'd think that if Minerva was faster than the AA, such would not have been the case.
Good evidence there, I agree, now my view shifts once again, I will remain neutral on the speed thing...I will do some more research when I have the time...but very good observation
What was the weapon that Minerva used on AA to tear up its armor? Or was it someone else doing that to Minerva?
This begs the question; exactly how far apart were the two?Originally posted by: KapsLocked
Hmm.... I'd think that they stopped the chase because AA got to the sea before Minerva caught up. Even though Minerva may be faster, if the AA got to the sea, it would be very difficult to hit it with weapons that would be effective.Originally posted by: Strike Freedom
Originally posted by: xat
I wonder if episode 34 can shed some light on the speed thing. Minerva pursues the AA, but the only time it actually shows an 'advantage in speed' is after the AA does a hard turn to avoid a head-on collision with Minerva (Minerva's "catch-up" is shown on-screen from another room), although it could be because AA lost speed due to its maneuver. From that point on, Kira told the crew of the AA to direct it towards the sea, and while doing so maintains a fair distance from the Minerva. Towards the conclusion of the episode, someone from the Minerva crew mentions that they're escaping -- I'd think that if Minerva was faster than the AA, such would not have been the case.
Good evidence there, I agree, now my view shifts once again, I will remain neutral on the speed thing...I will do some more research when I have the time...but very good observation
Again from episode 34, the following gives the rate at which the Minerva caught up with AA:
By the end of the sequence:
This sequence is about two seconds long, if that matters to anyone [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]
Note how far the AA got during this sequence vs. Minerva? Yet somehow-perhaps by Fukuda magic or by technical recovery-they (the AA/crew) were able to pick up their pace and even regain whatever distance they had lost from the Minerva, allowing for their escape. Keep in mind this is also against atmospheric conditions. In this case, the Minerva's aerodynamic structure should have allowed it to move faster, whereas the ArchAngel's structure should have provided less of such a benefit--I'm sure some even believe that its structure is even a hinderance to its speed within atmosphere.
Honestly I have yet to be remotely impressed by the Minerva. Its weapons have all been damaged at one point or another and several times the damage was rather serious. I personally had a Issue in 43 where Neo takes out the Isolde and then later that day with no noteable repair time they are off to space. That completely aside in every battle between the 2 ships the AA has been in a situation where they were completely outnumbered and in several cases in a unfavorable tactical position and the Minerva still couldn't do any serious damage. Yes when the AA was fleeing and specifically avoiding fireing at the Minerva it did damage there engines but that has been the extent of it.
The Minerva to me seems simply to be a subpar carrier ship that at the Beginning of GSD even needed to have Mobile suits on the ship defending it with only one or two units (3 for the one battle with Heine). With which it attacked while 2 suits (rei and Lunimaria) were basically left to guard the ship. In direct contrast the AA is a Battleship essentially made to fight with or without Mobile suits. This to me atleast gives it a HUGE advantage in a one on one battle with the Minerva. Essentially we are compairing a heavily armed battleship to a lightly armed Carrier ship. Note that also both ships are Carriers and I do believe the AA also has a greater storage capacity.
Isolde seems like an artillery type weapon to me, which would be totally useless in zero-g... So AA would have the upper hand with more weaponry...
To be fair, besides the attacks that happened they had a stop at Orb, and they were moving carefully trying to avoid ZAFT's normal patrols. Orb is somewhere in the south pacific, so it was out of the way when trying to go to Alaska. If the AA had taken a direct route from Africa through the air they probably could have gotten there much quicker.Originally posted by: naruto22
Minerva's speed is further proven in episode 40 where they travelled from Gibraltar Spain (not sure which route they took, either way they have to cross either the Asian continent the Americas (doubtful since Atlantic Federation aka USA is controlling hte Americas.)) in only 1 day. Remember that they only left Gibraltar shortly after ZAFT attacked ORB. And the battle didn't even last one day before the Minerva entered the fray. Archangel took a few weeks to reach Alaska from Egypt/Libya. Granted they were repeatedly attacked but nevertheless, the process took 10 episodes, which can be translated into a day each. Minus 5 days worth of attacks and you get a 5 day journey to Alaska.
I was going to point out the AA "acrobatic" maneuvers from SEED and Destiny but others already have. In comparison the two points for the Minerva that were brought up are inaccurate.
First they mentioned it dodging the Lohingrin in episode 18, but the did that by crashing into the ground. Fortunately for them it was just loose sand, and not something more solid.
Second, remember the AA had to basically stop for a brief time to allow the Sky Grasper to land. Assuming the Minerva's pilot has any real skill, I would think they would take advantage of that.
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