Abortion

[Terracosmo]

People, get back to the topic at hand and don't derail it into a discussion about races and whatnot.

Otherwise it will get T3H CLO5ED!

[ChaosK]

Originally posted by: Terracosmo
People, get back to the topic at hand and don't derail it into a discussion about races and whatnot.

Otherwise it will get T3H CLO5ED!

extremely threatening terra [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

the topic has nothing to do with blacks or whites or jobs!

[mage]

Originally posted by: Chaoskiddo

the topic has nothing to do with blacks

it does if we talk about aborting all of them

[Terracosmo]

Originally posted by: Chaoskiddo

Originally posted by: Terracosmo
People, get back to the topic at hand and don't derail it into a discussion about races and whatnot.

Otherwise it will get T3H CLO5ED!

extremely threatening terra [img][/img]

Surely you guys aren't so stupid that you can't heed my words just because I decide to for once not be all loud and scary about it?

[Carnage]

No, No, we're stupid enough[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]

[masamuneehs]

i think it goes without saying that basing any argument for/against abortion on racist or cultural grounds is a pretty poor argument.

And besides, do you all really want to get into a petty squabble over shit like that? mage had his little fun, posting offensive stuff like always. it would be good to get back onto the subject. i was pretty proud of how mature everyone was handling themselves in this discussion. This isn't an easy thing to discuss and voice your views on, but everyone was doing pretty well. Now the thread is threatened to be locked.

Racism has no place in this argument, and it's against the rules. Nuff said.

[darkmetal505]

I dont like the idea of abortion at any stage (it had potential to prosper), but I think its ok to have it.

[DB_Hunter]

Well, the black abortion argument is a non-starter. Reducing behaviour, particularly the concepts of individuals is incorrect and does not take into account the picture of society as a bigger whole. Whether it be a thug who is black or a politican who is white, the concept carried by both individuals is corrupt if they are both commiting a crime. Only the nature of the crime differs. You might as well say the whole world should pass a policy to have all american babies aborted in order to get rid of american imperialism.

The fact of the matter is that people live their lives in the according to the concepts they carry about life. A guy who has determined in his mind to commit a crime will do it, and his or her circumstances would determine the nature of the crime. What needs to be looked at is why the individual is turning to crime. Is it because the society at large is creating an atmosphere where people should do a crime if they think can get away with it? Is it because the needs of the individual are not being fulfilled? Does the system fail them? Why is it that alot of people from a certain strata of society live the way they do? What caused them to develop that way?

I think this is a big discussion in itself and perhaps another thread should be started to discuss the issue.

[Carnage]

Lets all heed Terra's/Choas'/Masamuneehs' words and just back away from the whole race thing. Lets get back on topic pplz!

[ImitationSanen]

This is very non controversial and relates to the topic!
As far as abortion, other than in cases of incest and danger to the mother, I believe it is a license to have unprotected sex, since kids believe there is little or no permanent damage done (I can just get an abortion). That was fine until 1979 when the AIDs virus came into play. Sex is a dangerous thing anymore. I can't say how i feel either way, accept messing with the natural order of things never seems to work right for us.

The truth is, in the United States you are what you make yourself. If you choose to be a moron by joining a gang or doing drugs you do so on your own merit as a human being. On the same token, if you bust your ass in school, dont smoke crack, and go to work everyday you will be successful. All this independant of your race.

The true reason race is such an issue in the United States is, the democratic party and in turn the news media, relies on it as a sabre to rattle at any other party everytime they begin to gain a majority. If they are supposedly for the equal treatment of everyone, why do they further programs which make a point of throwing our cultural differences in each others faces? Its the whole lets leave the past behind us and realize that we all live in the same country and are one people.

I can honestly tell you, when I look at a person, I dont see their race, their sex, or religion. I see their merits, what you do is who you are, race is irrelevant.

. I think we should once and for all just celebrate the unity of one people under one flag instead of constantly trying to throw our differences in each others faces. On the same token our race, gender or religion should never be used as an excuse as to why we fail, its an insult to everyone of that race or religion that did the right thing to succeed.

Don't worry, once Jessie Jackson and Al Sharpton are shown for the racial hatemongers they are for stirring the pot and trying to make every issue a race issue, and on the same token all of the people who populate the KKK will also die out. Leaving the world free of the generalizations of the past, to decide its own future. I believe the most of the percieved racial discrimination will disappear in favor of being a united people. I am a white male raised with southern values, no one should be generalized by what color they are or where they are from. At least thats what I hope my children will know when they grow up

[ImitationSanen]

"Ask your Black friends (you _do_ have a couple, right?) "

Just when I thought you could bring an intelligent opinion based on your interpretation of the facts of society, you throw in that bullshit comment.

Personal responsibility goes back to the last discussion. Its your responsbility not to make ignorant comments that are based not on fact (unless you happen to know me personally, which unless your floating out in the Persian Gulf at the moment I doubt you do). As a matter of fact most of the men in my unit are from miami and are cuban and hispanic, we also have a black fitness instructor that goes with our unit. Each of these men worked their way here, the beauty of the military is it is blind to color, and the system works well. We all know we are here because we earned it, not because of some oddball social program thats supposed to equal the playing field by discriminating against certain minorities and the majority.As soon as people stop making race and class inequality an excuse and start working through it, equality can be achieved. You ask any black, asian, arabic, european man on this ship or any of the ships next to it, they all got here because of their choices and actions. Its your responsibility to stop that stereotyping of southerners as racists, as it is my duty to not be racist despite the stereotype that all southerns are racist anyway so I might aswell be.

The beauty of a republic is we can have differences of opinion, I respect that, I fight for it, and I watch men die for it. Before you make a comment like the one above, carefully consider how much of an insult it could be to the person your directing it to.

Edit: This came to me a few minutes later
Oh and southerners are not the majority in the country, the population centers are in the North and the west. Secondly, almost half of the southern states are comprised of African Americans, most with the same values as I. I went to school with about an even mix of white and black kids, and you know? They were all just as color blind as I was. There was no "oh dont play with the black kids" crap. We were just kids and adults, picnicing, going to the movies. Thats not the exception either, thats more or less how it is in the south. Because of the events in the past, and the suffering on both sides. The blacks in slavery (Although the true blame lies in the Africans who sold the slaves to the whites when they sailed into Africa,) The whites in the 40 years of starvation after the north abolished slavery in the south, ruining their economy, with the major cities in ruins,but kept the slaves in the north. Lets debate again, just don't throw insults at people you don't know. That would be like me saying "I owned your granddad, then I hung him from a tree cause he smelled bad" If you were black and had family that were slaves 150 years ago that would enrage you correct? How do you think I feel when despite how i've lived my whole life I have to deal with people that automatically assume I am a racist genocidal maniac because I am from a certain portion of the map, without taking into account me as the individual?

[complich8]

Originally posted by: ImitationSanen
Just when I thought you could bring an intelligent opinion based on your interpretation of the facts of society, you throw in that bullshit comment.

Point conceded, that was probably a bit far.

Its your responsbility not to make ignorant comments that are based not on fact (unless you happen to know me personally, which unless your floating out in the Persian Gulf at the moment I doubt you do).

Nah, it's not. It's just my responsibility to own up to it when I do. We all ultimately act within the realm of our own ignorance, sometimes it's a matter of boldly marching through like an asshole or allowing fears of being perceived as one paralyze us. I'm not a fan of paralysis.

As a matter of fact most of the men in my unit are from miami and are cuban and hispanic, we also have a black fitness instructor that goes with our unit. Each of these men worked their way here, the beauty of the military is it is blind to color, and the system works well. We all know we are here because we earned it, not because of some oddball social program thats supposed to equal the playing field by discriminating against certain minorities and the majority.As soon as people stop making race and class inequality an excuse and start working through it, equality can be achieved. You ask any black, asian, arabic, european man on this ship or any of the ships next to it, they all got here because of their choices and actions.

The military is an excellent example of people overcoming racism, finding common ground in other things (like military culture and shared experiences). You're right, there. Within military culture, you're inside of a microcosm in which race isn't permitted to exist. Not so on the outside.

I'll still hold you to the challenge to ask your shipmates about their opinions on race. I doubt, given the ability to be completely candid (which they probably don't have within the scope of military service), that they honestly feel that "colorblindness" outside of the welcoming arms of the armed forces.

Its your responsibility to stop that stereotyping of southerners as racists, as it is my duty to not be racist despite the stereotype that all southerns are racist anyway so I might aswell be.

This is something of a flex in the meaning of the term "racism" as I'm using it. Once again I'm falling back to Tatum's definition: racism is a system of advantage. What you're terming racism is more likely prejudice, and you're right, it's also something we need to be aware of and fight.

I went to school with about an even mix of white and black kids, and you know? They were all just as color blind as I was. There was no "oh dont play with the black kids" crap. We were just kids and adults, picnicing, going to the movies.

Exposure tends to make those differences dissolve. As does shared culture. Again, both the military and your experiences reflect that. But at the same time, consider the case of Atlanta. While poorer people share schools and neighborhoods and lives with no regard for race, the upper class segregates sharply, with wealthy blacks and wealthy whites living in their own, segregated neighborhoods.

The blacks in slavery (Although the true blame lies in the Africans who sold the slaves to the whites when they sailed into Africa,) The whites in the 40 years of starvation after the north abolished slavery in the south, ruining their economy, with the major cities in ruins,but kept the slaves in the north.

Yikes. What's wrong with this?
(1) I seem to remember it being the Dutch to introduce slavery to the new world. And coining the term "niggers" as well.
(2) Africa wasn't, and isn't, some homogeneous place. It's a continent, not a country. It wasn't "black people selling other black people into slavery". It was "Zulu selling Mandingos" or "Hutu selling Tutsi".
(3) The north didn't seem to have a whole lot of slavery at the end of the civil war, according to any account I've heard. Got a source on your assertion?
(4) it's not like all the black people just suddenly dried up when slavery was abolished. Many of them still needed jobs and food. And it's not like there was a shortage of arable land, nor was there a shortage of labor to till it. But yeah, in a war people die. Property is destroyed. Things are overturned. Don't forget who seceeded from whom before you start blaming the north for the 150-year-old problems of the south. More to the point, do you think it would have been better to leave the status quo? If you think that the outcome was ultimately negative, I'd suggest you consider it from the point of view of the ~3.5 million people who, at the time, were not legally people at all. Otherwise, maybe this is a case where the past should be left comfortably in the past.

Originally posted by: Ero-fan
Which is exactly what we have. A representative democracy is a republic, just a fun way of saying it. And we would never be able to vote every single day on every single decision that congress ever makes. Unless you can make sure everyone would have a chance to vote, which you couldn't. Would you vote every day on town, county, state, and federal issues? It'd be a logistical nightmare.

I'll concede the point about the republic, I was somewhat operating on a false dichotomy. They have more in common than not, but I wouldn't go so far as to say they're interchangeable necessarily... that is, not all republics are democratic, and not all democracies need be republics.

As for direct democracies... As it is, many people don't vote (2004 saw 55% voter turnout, the highest it'd been since 1968). If everyone were given cell phones and the ability to text-message their vote to a handy number, say with voting issues texted out to everyone whenever they come up, with say a 48 hour window to get your vote in, automatic tabulation, etc ... it'd certainly be attainable. I don't think direct democracy is out of reach, given some sane planning and deployment (not that that's something the government is known for). But at the same time I think that such a direct democracy is generally a bad idea, because popular opinion are too easily manipulated.

Anyways, back on topic: It seems that justice that is being drilled to see if he will be appointed to the supreme court (I forget his name) is really being drilled to find out his stance on abortion. Anyone have any thoughts on what will happen to roe v wade if he gets appointed?

I don't think the balance will shift that far. Alito won't be the "middle seat" justice that O'Connor was. But I think his record is that of a judicial conservative, and I think that another of the justices will probably slide over on the spectrum. It seems to me like the supreme court values balance, and someone will subtly shift their opinion to maintain it, given a perceived shift in the center of gravity. I don't think that the court will be so far swayed that it'll enable it to "legislate from the bench" as they say.

[Ero-Fan]

Originally posted by: complich8
As for direct democracies... As it is, many people don't vote (2004 saw 55% voter turnout, the highest it'd been since 1968). If everyone were given cell phones and the ability to text-message their vote to a handy number, say with voting issues texted out to everyone whenever they come up, with say a 48 hour window to get your vote in, automatic tabulation, etc ... it'd certainly be attainable. I don't think direct democracy is out of reach, given some sane planning and deployment (not that that's something the government is known for). But at the same time I think that such a direct democracy is generally a bad idea, because popular opinion are too easily manipulated.

I still say it would be a pain in the ass. 48 hours would be too long for town, county, and state decisions. I mean, if you look at all the decsions a state makes in 48 hours (contracts, zoning/land rights, tax laws, fundings, budgets, etc.) you'd have a text message that would take days to read. Just getting rid of the position of mayor of a small town would be almost impossible, considering that the decisions/bills/contracts they sign for the town would have to be voted on. Christ, in high school I was in charge of logistics one year for rotc, and that was a nightmare; I can't imagine what it would be like if all of my classmates (a couple of hundred) had to vote on each and every agreement I made to spend or make us money. Besides, would you want uninformed people voting on things like whether to allow this or that piece of land to be zoned for residential, or commercial property? God, even thinking about what the mayor and town council in my little area do would be more than people can handle.
Well, hopefully he doesn't swing it enough to overturn roe v wade, but if he does, like I said before, it'll be left to the states. God help the women in the south.

[darkmetal505]

its amazing how this thread is proving David Brin's hypothesis from "The Dogma of Otherness".

Everyone does, says, eats, etc. what they want. To bad its not a perfect world.

[ImitationSanen]

[quote]
Originally posted by: complich8

Originally posted by: ImitationSanen
Just when I thought you could bring an intelligent opinion based on your interpretation of the facts of society, you throw in that bullshit comment.

Originally posted by: complich8 -Point conceded, that was probably a bit far.

Thanks,
Many a conflict could have been resolved if one side could understand the others feelings.

Im done talking about all of this since it is off topic and I apologize for the deviation. I guess I felt the same way Complich8 talks about here..

"Nah, it's not. It's just my responsibility to own up to it when I do. We all ultimately act within the realm of our own ignorance, sometimes it's a matter of boldly marching through like an asshole or allowing fears of being perceived as one paralyze us. I'm not a fan of paralysis"'

I guess thats how I felt when I saw the past posts, and thought damn the rules I have something I have to say.

You know as far as the rest, your right, the military is an interesting microcosm, and is not an absolute comparative to the real world, Its more like an indication that its possible that humanity will eventually be able to look past racism, defined as discrimination and as a social advantage.


As far as my comment of the African Slave traders, I will do proper research and if a post that has this sort of topic arrises I will be glad to offer my interpretation of the evidence.

"I don't think that the court will be so far swayed that it'll enable it to "legislate from the bench" as they say. "

Even though the current crop of judges would be in favor of my beliefs if they were able to, I hope at no point will the supreme court be allowed to legislate from the bench. Thats why we pay Legislators so much damn money

[el_boss]

I was discussing abortion with my sisters fiancé, who is a doctor. He brought up an interesting point that is very obvious, but I at least have never thought of it. Have you though about how the people doing the abortion feel? I bet not so good. I mean their job is to kill featuses. The same goes for euthanasia. It seems that people forget alot of the time, that there is actually a person that will have to do the deed.

This is not an argument for or agains abortion. I just though it was an intersteng view on the subject.

[Zinobi]

So I have this friend and she HATES the thought of abortion, BUT She would have the baby then LEAVE it to DIE if it would save her life.........or get her what she wants............she scares me most of the time.........

[Terracosmo]

Originally posted by: el_boss
I was discussing abortion with my sisters fiancé, who is a doctor. He brought up an interesting point that is very obvious, but I at least have never thought of it. Have you though about how the people doing the abortion feel? I bet not so good. I mean their job is to kill featuses. The same goes for euthanasia. It seems that people forget alot of the time, that there is actually a person that will have to do the deed.

This is not an argument for or agains abortion. I just though it was an intersteng view on the subject.

I think that the people who work with it rather works for the people and not for the things they have to do. I.e, euthanasia might seems like a horrible act to perform, but if the person in question really wants to die - then it's a good thing. Same with abortion. Not a beautiful act, but it's for a greater good.

At least that's how I would see it.

[masamuneehs]

Imitation. You have some good points, and you also have some back-up for those points that very few of us have: experience.
Just keep in mind, there are lots of different experiences, lots of exceptions to the rules/beliefs one's experiences has taught.

However, once again this is turning into an argument about race. I understand that Complich8 sorta called you out with that comment, but its a topic for a whole different day, an entirely different place. And, I am not that much of a troublemaker as to make any thread with the word "Race/Racism" in it. I simply doubt the forum's ability to handle itself in such an arena.

Originally posted by: ImitationSanen
As far as abortion, other than in cases of incest and danger to the mother, I believe it is a license to have unprotected sex, since kids believe there is little or no permanent damage done (I can just get an abortion). That was fine until 1979 when the AIDs virus came into play. Sex is a dangerous thing anymore. I can't say how i feel either way, accept messing with the natural order of things never seems to work right for us.

Freedoms are not licenses to abuse freedoms. Some people will abuse them, others will not. However, you do have a point; If people realize there is a safety net below them, they will tend to play on the roof-tops more often. People who have sex irresponsibly, without protection, are probably stupid/reckless enough to do it in a world without abortion. And, as knowing someone who had an abortion at quite a young age, it really isn't just "I can always get an abortion." That girl damn near had that baby when she was 15. She won't ever forget it, and I doubt she'll ever take unprotected sex for granted again.

I would like to believe that even in a world without STDs, where abortion was allowed, people would not just go around recklessly fucking with no rubber. There have been several studies that show that there is damning psychological damage done to a majority of women who have an abortion. And while some men might shrug it off, "it didn't effect me", then they are those who abuse such freedoms and rights. When I'm about to have sex, even if i think, even if i know the girl is clean of STDs, I wear a condom because there is no way I would ever trade MY unborn child's life for a few extra minutes of raw-dog sex. Anyone who would make that trade is an abomination in my eyes.

[masamuneehs]

i offer no responsibilities or changes for the ruckus that has become this forum.

on topic:

Alito's confirmation is drawing ever closer in the Senate
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,182725,00.html
http://www.signonsandiego.com/...060125-0935-alito.html
http://www.lifenews.com/nat2032.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/...5/AR2006012501165.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4648014.stm