Claymore

[shinta|hikari]

I never said not becoming evil when you become an awakened is a bad thing. It just seemed strange since it was not consistent with the case of Priscilla.

Irene's face popped up at that time too. It isnt so unreasonable to think of the person that actually prevented you from becoming an awakened being (actually turning her into a half-awakened and consequently more powerful) at one time. And I think Ophelia was saying that Clare should think about the ones she will leave behind, and that is what caused the flashback (EDIT - the second one, after which she cut the tentacles and proceeded grinding).

Uh, awakened beings arent supposed to die as humans, since they arent human nor even claymores anymore. I am not dismissing anything that has happened before. I think you are missing the point of the earlier posts. Youmas and awakened beings are known to be treacherous, and Clare should know this most of all. It doesnt matter if claymores want to die as humans or if Clare has become more human and symphatetic to others. Its just common sense to eliminate the enemy as efficiently as possible, especially since it is an awakened being, or risk the chance of dying like Teresa.

Im not saying Clare should be less symphatetic or colder, but as the situation was, there really was no room nor reason for such things, also in consideration of her past experiences.

It is precisely the turn of events that made this episode a hack and slash one for me. As oyabin earlier stated, with the flash sword, she could have sliced Ophelia's head off instead of scratching her body parts like she did. Why? No real reason, except because there needs to be more action inserted (yes, typical of hack and slash shows).

Dilemmas are good if they are properly delivered. There was simply no indication that awakened beings can actually hold a human-like consciousness. If there was, everyone would have complained at my claim that turning youma automatically turns you evil. Im not saying the idea itself is bad. Im saying the way it was presented was too sudden, making it feel fake.

Read between the lines? Are you kidding? The succeeding the will thus fighting on a set rule theory makes sense, though cheap sense since claymore isnt really a kiddy shounen morals show. That scenario of Clare thinking Ophelia has given up is absolutely stupid, and if she did think that, she deserves to die. Even Ophelia notes how stupids she is, and stabs her for it. If Ophelia hadnt cheered Clare on, she would be dead (which I still find to be strange and too sudden).

[Kraco]

When watching that scene, I got the feeling Ophelia suggested that if Clare can't proceed through her whole body, she isn't strong enough to ever face Priscilla. And Clare did that just to prove it to herself, not Ophelia. When she got tired in the middle, Ophelia stabbed her partly to show she was right: Clare doesn't have the power, and partly to encourage her forward. Though I'm not entirely sure if Ophelia wanted Clare to exceed her limits as well, sharing the fate of turning into a yoma, or really succeed and release Ophelia from that ill fate.

[Munsu]

I never said not becoming evil when you become an awakened is a bad thing. It just seemed strange since it was not consistent with the case of Priscilla

Yeah, but this was the first thing you posted when you said you didn't like the episode, so it can be easilly understood that you think it's a bad turn on events. You also need to understand that no one in this show has been shown to detest Awakened beings more than Ophellia, and you need to take that into consideration after she was shocked after seeing her reflection. So it's not really strange.

Irene's face popped up at that time too. It isnt so unreasonable to think of the person that actually prevented you from becoming an awakened being (actually turning her into a half-awakened and consequently more powerful) at one time. And I think Ophelia was saying that Clare should think about the ones she will leave behind, and that is what caused the flashback (EDIT - the second one, after which she cut the tentacles and proceeded grinding).

I was editing my post while you posted, so you probably missed it. But she was thinking more of how she was the one that survived Teresa, and if she's worthy of carrying her blood and flesh... again, that's the whole point of this episode, she making good by Teresa as Irene had pointed out earlier on the importance of she having Teresa's flesh in her etc.

Now, if we saw more flashbacks, even ones showing Raki I can already see you guys posting "Damnit, what a horrible episode, it was all flashbacks". Simply draw a parallel with the situation she was in when she was little and with Raki currently, that should be enough.

Uh, awakened beings arent supposed to die as humans, since they arent human nor even claymores anymore. I am not dismissing anything that has happened before. I think you are missing the point of the earlier posts. Youmas and awakened beings are known to be treacherous, and Clare should know this most of all. It doesnt matter if claymores want to die as humans or if Clare has become more human and symphatetic to others. Its just common sense to eliminate the enemy as efficiently as possible, especially since it is an awakened being, or risk the chance of dying like Teresa.

Dilemmas are good if they are properly delivered. There was simply no indication that awakened beings can actually hold a human-like consciousness. If there was, everyone would have complained at my claim that turning youma automatically turns you evil. Im not saying the idea itself is bad. Im saying the way it was presented was too sudden, making it feel fake.

Sorry, but as it has been portrayed many times before, these Claymores are very frail girls with tragic pasts. They have real sense of comradery, especially preventing other Claymores from dying as Yomas. Hence the importance of the second episode. All we know about Awakened beings has to be taken as grains of salt, none can be taken as absolute truths because the information we have gathered are from unreliable sources or sources that really don't know much. So if Clare saw that Ophellia still had some humanity in her, there's no reason for her not to try and save it.

I just think you dislike the anime throwing out all your previous theories. It surprised you, and it pisses you off.

Read between the lines? Are you kidding? The succeeding the will thus fighting on a set rule theory makes sense, though cheap sense since claymore isnt really a kiddy shounen morals show. That scenario of Clare thinking Ophelia has given up is absolutely stupid, and if she did think that, she deserves to die. Even Ophelia notes how stupids she is, and stabs her for it. If Ophelia hadnt cheered Clare on, she would be dead (which I still find to be strange and too sudden).

You answered it yourself. Yes it was stupid, and the series itself aknowledges it. Clare has been shown to be very irrational in the past, so there's no real surprise here.

This episode was really good, and opened many new doors but you guys only notice the "bad" things from the episode. Heck, we saw a new character called Rafaela who was ranked 5, and Irene said that she probably couldn't beat her even with both her arms. So what's the deal with her?

[Shadow Skill]

Ophelia's boobies are $$

[shinta|hikari]

You assumed I was saying it was a bad thing, I didnt.

Flashbacks dont need to be long, just enough to show he is part of it, like a 1 second flash of his face? (this is no big deal really, I commented on this because I pitied Raki, not really because it was a bad thing in terms of story, but saying a 1-3 second showing of Raki's face will invite criticism for excessive flashbacks? LOL)

There are tons of reasons (Umm, like how Teresa, the most important person to her, died?) to not try and save it (Ophelia's humanity), and that was my point. But then again, as you said, Clare isnt really rational, and thus my complaints.

Whether Im surprised or not, or whether my predictions are correct or not do not matter. What I was emphasizing if you read between the lines is that the delivery was lacking, not the actual plot direction itself. It was too sudden, not surprising, and there is a big difference.

What I meant in the last part is that Clare couldnt have thought that Ophelia was giving up, but rather thought of it as a challenge that she needs to overcome to succeed her will. The first possibility which you proposed is preposterous, since Clare isnt that much of a fool (or any other character for that matter).

Actually, what Ophelia did was a very good strategy since Clare cannot use flash sword for a long time, its just that she had failed to complete it by killing Clare off.

EDIT - Still, I was amazed at how you said I was pissed off at surprises (wow how did you conclude that), since that is the farthest from the truth. Im not sure if its an attempt at taunting me, but really... LOL.

I realize now that all I was hoping for was for Clare to be a smart character, for I actually thought that she was from the previous episodes (with all the planning etc.), but it seems some prefer to think of her as stupid, and if that is so, this episode isnt so bad.

[Idealistic]

I was sort of hoping Clare would get Irene's arm in a different way, but that is good enough I guess.

As for why Rafaela is only #5? I'm going to guess it's probably because she has only 1 eye. I wonder if she will kill Irene though.

As for cutting Ophelia up, how come she just didn't slice it off piece by piece? lol... It seems to use up so much more strength doing the flash sword repeatedly...

Anyways, this series is getting better and better.

[Yukimura]

When has Clare ever done things the easy way? She's always shown some level of compassion and humanity when dealing with non Yoma (humans and Claymores).

Ophelia seemed genuinely shocked that she had awakened and everything that came out of her mouth hinted that she was fighting the urges imposed on her by awakening ("I want to east something soft and warm, like guts" and "They don't have to be human guts, but the closer the better") stuff like that made it understandable that she retained some of her senses, unlike the only other pre and post awakened person we've seen who was completely consumed by her Yoma side when she awakened.

My speculation based on these two different circumstances is that your state of mind as you awaken has some factor in how much of your human will stays with you across the change. Priscilla awakened while angry, frustrated, and in a fight she thought meant everything to her. Once she'd crossed over she maintained human cunning but became 'evil' in that she just wanted to win the fight and was willing to sink as far into her Yoma nature as she could in order to gain the power to do it. Ophelia awakened while angry, frustrated, injured and thinking about how she missed her brother who had saved her. Once she crossed over her thoughts weren't on something negative like killing an enemy they were on her brother and that may have lead to her humanity being able to resist the urge to sink further into her Yoma nature.

I'd agree that Clare didn't just kill her outright because she felt bad for her and wanted to give her some shred of human dignity in death. While it may be stupid of the warrior scale it was the more human thing to do, and one of the things they've stressed more than anything in this show is that Claymores being more human in the head is a good thing.

[complich8]

I definitely like Ophelia's rejection of her own Awakened state. And how she didn't put it together until she saw herself while fighting Clare. She really didn't grasp her situation at all.

I also liked how Clare got a new arm. It's much less cheap than giving her something like a Picollo-style limb regeneration. Her difficulty with flash sword and her trouble controlling Irene's arm were both nice tools to re-ground her post-half-awakened state, underscoring that just because she can awaken and come back doesn't mean it's suddenly easy for her to do. Good times, that.

I think that for as long as we've been following Clare, she hasn't really been engaged in any sort of real training or practice, so she hasn't gotten significantly better. Meeting Irene and spending a couple days practicing with her and learning her technique, albeit imperfectly, definitely should have yielded a power and speed increase.

I'd like to see Clare engage in a lot more practice and training on her own, exploring her own power and its limits. She knows what her strengths and weaknesses are, so even without someone's yoki to read, I'd think she could spend time improving her weak points ... like the switch between defensively pushing her power down and flipping it into high-powered attack mode.

[Munsu]

EDIT - Still, I was amazed at how you said I was pissed off at surprises (wow how did you conclude that), since that is the farthest from the truth. Im not sure if its an attempt at taunting me, but really... LOL.

I realize now that all I was hoping for was for Clare to be a smart character, for I actually thought that she was from the previous episodes (with all the planning etc.), but it seems some prefer to think of her as stupid, and if that is so, this episode isnt so bad.

But the thing Im most pissed about is how Raki didnt appear in her head when she was remembering the things/people she would leave behind if she died, the poor guy.

Something was surely pissing you besides the quoted. I'm not taunting you, I just find your quirks about the episode unwarranted. I see them too minor to conclude that it wasn't a good episode (since you didn't like it). The episode had a lot more to offer, but as I mentioned people tend to focus on the negative portions (even though I disagree they are) of the episode instead on the positives that hugely overwhelm the former. Like the introduction of Rafela, ranked number 5 and Irene questions why she is ranked that low when she's that strong, that she probably would still lose if she had her two arms. But whatever, to each his own.

Flashbacks dont need to be long, just enough to show he is part of it, like a 1 second flash of his face? (this is no big deal really, I commented on this because I pitied Raki, not really because it was a bad thing in terms of story, but saying a 1-3 second showing of Raki's face will invite criticism for excessive flashbacks? LOL)

Yeah, but still using Raki in that moment would overshadow the importance of her actually being the one that survived Teresa. It was something that Clare and Irene talked plenty during the episode, so there had to be a direct link to what they talked about and what was suddenly said to Clare during the fight.

What I meant in the last part is that Clare couldnt have thought that Ophelia was giving up, but rather thought of it as a challenge that she needs to overcome to succeed her will. The first possibility which you proposed is preposterous, since Clare isnt that much of a fool (or any other character for that matter).

I was just throwing a possibility, not that it's actually her train of thought. But Ophelia certainly didn't like being Awakened and we know it because of her reaction when she saw her reflection, because we know how she hates them, and how she didn't really fight at full strength after that, so Clare should've picked up on Ophelia not putting up a real fight. And if you aknowledge that Clare is irrational and "stupid" then you can't deny this as a possibility.

[BananaFob]

For a minute there, I thought that Rafaela was either Noel or Sophia because Priscilla had stabbed their eyes, but then the hair was different.

On another note, was Clare using any of her Yoma powers when she was shredding Orphelia's body up? Clare looked like she never used any Yoma powers because she didn't have her yellow eyes, but then again, her veins were sticking out violently. One more thing, how did get power-up when she was stopped by Orphelia? After having such a momentarily flashback, it made her endure the pain and continue (which I really doubt is the real reason for her sudden boost in energy). Last question, back in episode 8, or the awakening of Priscilla, she threw Irene's arm back to her after she cut it off. Why didn't Irene repair her arm at that time?

Anyway, the next episode looks very interesting. Based on the preview, it seems set in a dark place, just like the Organization place shown during the last several seconds of the episode. Maybe this episode will show how Claymores are born, or that maybe the Organization actually breeds and make the Yoma.

[Munsu]

The best answer I can come up with is that Irene suffered a nasty near fatal wound, she seemed to lose consciousness, also she probably needed all her youma energy to heal it, and there wasn't any left to use for her arm. Probably, by the time she came to, she couldn't attach her limb any longer because too much time had passed. You can see Clare urging Irene to attach it for a reason, maybe you need to attach it within a time frame or it becomes impossible.