Learning a new language

[Psyke]

This's piqued my curiosity, but how so? As far as Chinese goes, the written language is all the same; shouldn't the spoken dialects simply be different pronunciations for each character?

The written language is largely the same, but there are differences enough to confuse people who don't understand the different dialets. Just in Singapore alone, there are already 4 different types of dialets, which are generally used by the elders and senior citizens. The younger generation mostly only understand Mandarin, and perhaps 1 more dialet used within family members, such as Teo Chew, Hokkien, or Cantonese.

As for Mizuchi, the text books I'm using now are completely void of English, and I haven't seen the Japanese for Dummies book. I'm sure it's a good starting point to understand the basics as well as the character sets.

[masamuneehs]

Good sites for teaching yourself Japanese:
http://www.guidetojapanese.org/ - Good basic overview
http://www.sf.airnet.ne.jp/ts/japanese/ - Another good basic overview with some audio files

http://www.realkana.com/ - Flash site to learn the Kana alphabets
http://www.realkanji.com/kanji/ - Same makers, for Kanji

[Mizuchi]

Good sites for teaching yourself Japanese:
http://www.guidetojapanese.org/ - Good basic overview
http://www.sf.airnet.ne.jp/ts/japanese/ - Another good basic overview with some audio files

http://www.realkana.com/ - Flash site to learn the Kana alphabets
http://www.realkanji.com/kanji/ - Same makers, for Kanji

Domo masu-chan

[Psyke]

Domo masu-chan

Masu......chan?

[Koyuki]

Masu-san.

Anyways. It's easier to learn if you're more people, get some of your friends with you. Also watching anime without subs are a nice way to learn somthing, you'll catch some words here and there.

Don't give up, hang in there. Gambatte Mizu-kun!

[Animeniax]

I'd have said "masa-sensei" since he's instructing Mizuchi, but how much bigger a head can we give masa than he already has?

@Mizuchi, the entire -chan -kun -san honorific titling scheme is very important to the Japanese. The point at which people start calling each other -kun or by their first name is serious business. Do it too early and you risk offending them and completely ruining the relationship. If you're serious about learning their ways and culture, that's one of the first lessons you need to understand.

[Koyuki]

@Animeniax: Masa just gave him some links, but ok. I remember the -kun, -chan, -san. It was the first chapter in my "Learn Japanese" book. It's really important.

@Mizuchi: You should read about Japanese culture on Wiki. It's good to learn about the culture to understand them.

[Animeniax]

Well it's more than just the links. masa lords overs us from on high with his infinite wisdom. We really should refer to him appropriately as masa-sensei or masa-sama, lest he take offense and smite us.

Are you planning on college, Mizuchi? If so, you should take Japanese classes. They'll fulfill any foreign language requirements for your degree, plus it's Japanese, so its win-win. It would be good to get a head start before taking Japanese classes in school. The only concern is learning things wrong. Like I'm learning to write kana on my own now, and a lot of my characters would never pass a teacher's grading, though they are legible and you can figure out what they are. And then there's that time at a restaurant when I told a waiter "chotto matte yo", when I completely did not mean to be rude or forceful in that situation. I still wonder if that was spit or just grease on my steak .

[Mizuchi]

@Animeniax: Masa just gave him some links, but ok. I remember the -kun, -chan, -san. It was the first chapter in my "Learn Japanese" book. It's really important.

@Mizuchi: You should read about Japanese culture on Wiki. It's good to learn about the culture to understand them.

lol nah i know the suffixes and what they mean. Thats why I put the little face next to it, referring to it being a joke, as the suffix should've been -san or -sama (since hes admin). I probably shouldn't joke like that though, as it may become a bad habit and I may accidently do it when in japan and unintentionally offend someone .

@animen: yeah i plan on taking japanese in college, but I would like to learn to speak it rather well before college, as I'm still a sophomore in highschool and would like to go at a faster pace, and I still have over 2 years before college.

[Animeniax]

Wow, you're in high school and you can afford Rosetta Stone software?

You're best bet at this point would be to make some Japanese friends (or gf, even better). You could also look into studying abroad in Japan and student exchange programs. And what better vacation than to do a 1 or 2 week homestay visit with a host family in Japan? Learning Japanese from watching anime is probably the worst option.

[Psyke]

I thought the easiest were the Hira and Kata, while the Kanji is relatively easy to me since they are based on Chinese characters. The hardest are the multiple forms for verbs and the honorifics. Each verb can have as many as 8 different forms, such as passive, causative, causative-passive, transitive, intransitive, etc....... This is by far the harddest to grasp, and the only way to learn is to practice speaking.

[Animeniax]

If you're used to character systems, I can see the kana being simple to grasp. I think Americans who are only used to roman characters will have a harder time differentiating between the different squiggly lines.

I don't see the honorifics being that complex, though it seems to boggle a lot of the people here who can't help throwing them around too casually.

Verb forms can be a problem, but in spoken language, I imagine non-native speakers have a hard time differentiating between the forms, so they all end up sounding the same. I don't think this would hinder you from becoming at least fluent in spoken Japanese, though you'll fail some written tests in school.

[Psyke]

The honorifics I mean don't just refer to the ones used for addressing people, but also the way of speaking, etc. There are generally a few types of honorifics:

1) Talking to a superior (family or work)
2) Talking to a person of similar level
3) Talking to a person of lower level
4) Humbling sentences, meant for politeness

It's not just about adding -san to a name for respect, but your entire sentence structure can change.

Simple example:

"Can I borrow a book?"

To a person of same/lower level: "Hon o kashitte mo ii?"
To show politeness : "Hon o kashitte mo ii desu ka?"
To show respect: "Hon o kashitte kuremasen ka?"

This is just a very simple example, and there are much more complex forms for other verbs, such as eat:

"Have you eaten?"

normal: "Tabemashita ka?"
honorific: "Meshi agarimashita ka?"

And this is just the tip of the ice berg, as the Japanese practices very different style of speech to different audiences. Most of the time, the words you hear in anime belong to the more impolite category, and my sensei used to tell us to avoid some of the terms which I thought were part of everyday language.

[Animeniax]

Ahh so. Yeah that part can be tricky, though I think it waters down to casual versus respectful phrasing. Something I find that complicates learning Japanese is knowing what's old-fashioned compared to what's currently in use.

[Psyke]

For Vista users, you can try adding this Japanese Audio Word of the Day gadget to your side bar. It's a good and simple way to increase your vocab and Japanese word bank. Ranges from simple words to fairly difficult ones, and includes pronounciation.

[David75]

Regarding appropriate use of words/level of language/hierachy/sex
Where is it possible to find a complete database of words/kanjis/rules that clearly specifies all of this?

[Mizuchi]

oh god, this is starting to scare me... lol. It's hard because we don't have any japanese people at my school *cries deeply* so i found the next best thing and got my chinese friend (shes hott but speaks no japanese or even mandarin/kanji for that matter lol, only her dialect) to learn japanese with me. It's hard to practice speech though because we have no book or reference we can use to practice what we learn.

For example, like in the first 2 days we were learning japanese we got to like page 45 in the Japanese for dummies book, and I am pretty much still on that page after a month, maybe a little ahead, because its so hard to memorize everything that I've learned because I don't practice it.

Does anyone know any good books or programs or ways I can practice what I learned? Like I feel stupid cuz its so early in the learning and im already stuck, liek with all these rules.

Like how verbs change whether they are a u- or an ru- verb, and like this big table of suffixes i didn't even bother to memorize like -iru and -desho and -nagara. Also the table of pronouns, like even if I take notes, after a few days I just forget all of the rules and memorized things, so Im looking for a way to retain the information. Me and my friend cant really speak it to each other cuz we don't know enough to make sentances yet =/.

[NM]

For example, like in the first 2 days we were learning japanese we got to like page 45 in the Japanese for dummies book, and I am pretty much still on that page after a month, maybe a little ahead, because its so hard to memorize everything that I've learned because I don't practice it.

Well, that's the main problem right there, lol. The key to ANY language is to practice, practice, and more practice. Just following along the book isn't enough, you should be speaking what you learn from the book with your friend (which is really good that you were able to find someone since you can both converse with each other). This brings back the point that Ryullharu said, immersion. If you're in an environment where nothing but that language is the only spoken dialect, you will catch on to it MUCH faster. This will be great for Masa since he's going to be going to Japan.

In high school, I took French (went up to French III) and during the time, it was not my best class. I'll admit I slacked most of the time during lecture and only tried hard just to pass the exams and any reports (mostly journal entries). Granted had I put in the time and effort and really studied and put what I learned to use, I would have understood and could speak it to this day.

I can tell that you really want to learn though and I think its great that you are getting a head start on it. Even if you don't get it now, don't fret. When you take it in college, you will already have some grip on it (your Japanese for Dummies book, Rosetta Stone, and through anime) and you will have an instructor to tell you how to prepare. Just don't be like me and only study to pass.

[Mizuchi]

it also gets confusing because im learning another language as well, as I am taking the highest level of spanish my school has to offer.

And yes I know im supposed to immerse myself in a japanese environment and practice, but i just dont know how. I only have a brief understanding of the structure, but i fail to remember any rules or vocabulary . Maybe I should get another textbook that has practice excersizes at the end of each section? Does anyone have a suggestion?

[David75]

I've got Tell Me More from Auralog.
And although the interface is really old and It has some flaws regarding Kanji learning, the speech recongnition part is nice. You can tune the level you have to pass for prononciation. I put it to the max from the beggining because I think good pronounciation has to be done from the start. After it's too late because you're already used to the bad way you pronounce.

So you can start in a lexical fashion, and then you also have scene dubbing and everyday life chat etc... all with voice recognition, even for long phrases.

I don't know if that will be great in the end, but it seems it's not too bad to train oneself when no japanese people is around for help.
Maybe after sometime like this, a japanese chatroom would be next, and then voip