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[XanBcoo]

Huh? Does West expect men to shave their face?

No. And whether they do or don't does not effect society's perception of them in any recognizably negative way.

Women might face more external pressure, but ultimately it's their own choice to either do it or accept the possible consequences of skipping it.

Well it's basically, "Comply with our arbitrary expectations or face discrimination." I don't know what it's like in other countries, but in the US it's expected. There's not really a "choice" at all.

I grew up in the US and think completely shaven women are as hot as it gets. But I realize that that's a product of being socialized to expect certain things. You can't really call it a fair choice until both options are accepted in society.

[Uchiha Barles]

Naw, corporate america at the very least prefers the image of a clean shaven man over that of a mustached and bearded man. There are many positions where you are required to keep a clean shaven and neat appearance. There's definitely pressure social pressure for men to shave from the workplace in addition to whatever sexual pressure there is from women who do not like facial hair. As far as I know, women only face sexual pressure to shave their legs, and maybe peer pressure from other women. That can become effective workplace pressure, but I've never heard of any actual policy against leg hair in the workplace (beyond the requirement to present a neat image).

[XanBcoo]

Naw, corporate america at the very least prefers the image of a clean shaven man over that of a mustached and bearded man. There are many positions where you are required to keep a clean shaven and neat appearance.

Cool. That's not at all what's being discussed. And even then, there is a clear choice (with little repercussion) being made to enter that position or not. There is no stigma against not taking a position where that is required.

There's definitely pressure social pressure for men to shave from the workplace in addition to whatever sexual pressure there is from women who do not like facial hair.

Roughly equal amounts of women prefer men shaven to unshaven. Vastly fewer men prefer women unshaven to shaven, to the point where body hair on women is stigmatized. This is what I meant. There's no choice until both are acceptable options.

I'm not saying whether it should be or not, but that's the reality of the situation.

[Kraco]

Roughly equal amounts of women prefer men shaven to unshaven. Vastly fewer men prefer women unshaven to shaven, to the point where body hair on women is stigmatized. This is what I meant. There's no choice until both are acceptable options.

Huh? Both are acceptable already if there are men in significant numbers not minding or preferring their woman's appendages natural. Or are you arguing about statistics here? You need 50-50 for it to be okay, or something? Is that even realistic all things considered, since hairless legs or a hairless face aren't everything men or women look for in their partners, so you wouldn't get 50% acceptance anyway, due to all the other filters.

[XanBcoo]

Huh? Both are acceptable already if there are men in significant numbers not minding or preferring their woman's appendages natural.

No, they are not. Like I said, I don't know what it's like in other countries but body hair on women, even arm hair, is heavily stigmatizing. And even when it is accepted, it's treated as a fetish. A subversion. The pressure comes from both men and other women.

No one's asking for exact percentages.

And I'm being typically American and basing this on US culture. I realize that elsewhere it might not be the same, which is a good thing.

[Ryllharu]

Naw, corporate america at the very least prefers the image of a clean shaven man over that of a mustached and bearded man. There are many positions where you are required to keep a clean shaven and neat appearance. There's definitely pressure social pressure for men to shave from the workplace in addition to whatever sexual pressure there is from women who do not like facial hair. As far as I know, women only face sexual pressure to shave their legs, and maybe peer pressure from other women.

Indeed. Any job where you might have to use a respirator requires a clean shaven face.

Dress codes are a flip side to this coin. Women typically get a much more relaxed dress code when it comes to "business casual" and "professional" requirements. Men are stuck with slacks, tucked-in polo shirts (if they're lucky) and tucked-in dress shirts for Business Casual and dress pants, shirt, tie, and jacket for Professional. Women in the workplace can get away with quit a bit more, many of which straddle the line of each dress code standard.

Roughly equal amounts of women prefer men shaven to unshaven. Vastly fewer men prefer women unshaven to shaven, to the point where body hair on women is stigmatized. This is what I meant. There's no choice until both are acceptable options.

Where do you find these equal amounts going for male facial hair? Chest hair is one thing that goes one way or the other, but women in my age demographic generally don't allow their boyfriends/husbands to keep a beard (at least for long).

[XanBcoo]

Man, I really don't know why it's hard to accept that men don't face the same social discrimination that women do. I didn't mean to start a derail, and I haven't said anything particularly radical, but I keep reading posts that are unnecessarily defensive...

Dress codes are a flip side to this coin. Women typically get a much more relaxed dress code when it comes to "business casual" and "professional" requirements. Men are stuck with slacks, tucked-in polo shirts (if they're lucky) and tucked-in dress shirts for Business Casual and dress pants, shirt, tie, and jacket for Professional. Women in the workplace can get away with quit a bit more, many of which straddle the line of each dress code standard.

Personally I'd love to give up my clearly defined and near-universally standard dress code in lieu of one that lends itself to interpretation, and therefor abuse and discrimination due to being either way too slutty or
not slutty enough.

Non-sarcastic response: Men have fewer dress code options which, at its worst, is a bit of a bore. It sucks but we're basically unaffected. Women have many dress code options but face a higher risk of discrimination and must always "straddle the line" amongst judgmental coworkers, peers, and customers. Yes, it is a system that can be abused by some women. It is also a system that is constantly abused by men.

At the expense of dressing relatively similarly every day, men forgo this abuse. I don't see which side of the coin is the negative one.

Where do you find these equal amounts going for male facial hair? Chest hair is one thing that goes one way or the other, but women in my age demographic generally don't allow their boyfriends/husbands to keep a beard (at least for long).

Actually, I was speaking 100% anecdotally, but after a few minutes of googling it seems that unshaven is consistently considered at least kind of attractive:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/ear...-marriage.html

http://www.pajiba.com/seriously_rand...e-dont-lie.php

http://www.lsureveille.com/facial-ha...9#.TxiyKvni03g

89% in the 1970s.

You don't find numbers like that approving of non-shaven women. But that's not even my point. The point is that men don't face the same stigma for not shaving that women do.

I need to reread my posts and make sure I'm not coming off too uptight or something.

[Ryllharu]

For the record, you're not coming off too uptight, I'm more after the debate for its own sake.

Non-sarcastic response: Men have fewer dress code options which, at its worst, is a bit of a bore. It sucks but we're basically unaffected. Women have many dress code options but face a higher risk of discrimination and must always "straddle the line" amongst judgmental coworkers, peers, and customers. Yes, it is a system that can be abused by some women. It is also a system that is constantly abused by men.

"Can be" as opposed to "constantly"? That seems a bit unfair. I take it you've never experienced a female co-worker with a serious case of RIBS? (alternate link) Never been chastised for wearing jeans when a female co-worker gets away with substantially less appropriate attire? Not all discrimination is negative.

It sounds like a misogynistic joke, but I assure you, within male dominated industries like many of the STEM fields, it's a real phenomenon. There are simply things that female STEM employees can get away with because they are within the minority. Management also loves to fast-track them, to meet ultimately meaningless equal-opportunity metrics ("meaningless" entirely due to the 90%/10% demographics). I hesitate to state they face a higher rate of discrimination when they get that much more exposure to career development opportunities than their male peers.

Granted, not all of them are like that (more of the good kind than otherwise in my experience), but there is no question that there are some female STEM employees that love all the attention they get.

[Kraco]

Non-sarcastic response: Men have fewer dress code options which, at its worst, is a bit of a bore. It sucks but we're basically unaffected. Women have many dress code options but face a higher risk of discrimination and must always "straddle the line" amongst judgmental coworkers, peers, and customers. Yes, it is a system that can be abused by some women. It is also a system that is constantly abused by men.

At the expense of dressing relatively similarly every day, men forgo this abuse. I don't see which side of the coin is the negative one.

Let's apply this logic to the original case: Women have fewer shaving options, so at its worst it becomes a bore. Men have more, so they must spend time stressing over what kind of solution to find that suits themselves personally yet doesn't annoy the people around them, yet they see other, more daring or otherwise privileged men abuse it. At the expense of shaving similarly every day, women can entirely forgo the abuse.