One Piece Episode 410

[Sentenal]

What do the Amazons have to do with Aokiji and Crocodile? Yes, Luffy was determined against Aokiji and Crocodile. It turns out that you need to be strong and determined, because Aokiji is strong. I don't see how this contradicts what I said. In fact, it seems to indicate that determination alone is not strength. Luffy would have done anything within his power to save the crew from Kuma, for example, but he couldn't do anything. He was too weak.

Luffy has used Haki maybe once or twice thus far, and did so without knowing what it is. The Amazons apparently use it for all their attacks. Therefore, the Amazons are better at using Haki than Luffy at this moment. Are generic amazons, who use Haki in all of their attacks, stronger and more determined than Luffy? No, they aren't. Infact, on the grand order of things, I'd say that alot of these Amazons we have seen aren't even that strong. The Strongest Amazons are with Boa Hancock, and the weaker ones are left on the island. Therefore, Haki isn't literally people who are "strong and determined" having special abilities (such as knocking people out, splitting the sky, or damaging Logia users).

Haki is the "chi" or "chakra" or whatever in One Piece. This is an established fact now.

[poopdeville]

Luffy has used Haki maybe once or twice thus far, and did so without knowing what it is. The Amazons apparently use it for all their attacks. Therefore, the Amazons are better at using Haki than Luffy at this moment. Are generic amazons, who use Haki in all of their attacks, stronger and more determined than Luffy? No, they aren't. Infact, on the grand order of things, I'd say that alot of these Amazons we have seen aren't even that strong. The Strongest Amazons are with Boa Hancock, and the weaker ones are left on the island. Therefore, Haki isn't literally people who are "strong and determined" having special abilities (such as knocking people out, splitting the sky, or damaging Logia users).

That last "therefore" simply does not follow from what you have established. All you have shown is that the Amazons are more skilled at ONE PARTICULAR "haki-using skill." I am saying that HAKI ISN'T A SKILL. I am saying that Haki is a reflection of a person's skill and determination. Luffy has his OWN haki, and it's called the King's Disposition, and he has shown it about a dozen times by now. Basically every time he's yelled while punching somebody out. (Crocodile, Enel, the Tenryubiito guy for example)

Are you really going to argue that Luffy wasn't using his fists to show his determination against Rob Lucci? That he wasn't pushing himself as hard as he could, so he could punch Rob Lucci as hard as he could? That is just as much "haki" as the Amazons shooting their arrows "extra hard". (What do you think shooting arrows "extra hard" reveals about the Amazons? I think it means they have practiced their archery, just as Luffy has practiced his DF skills to become strong)

So Luffy didn't know what it was called. Big flippin deal.

Also, it's pretty stupid to say that the Amazons are not "strong and determined" just because the strongest of them leave the island. They are a race of warriors, and they value strength above everything else. That is why they are so determined to become great warriors. Indeed, that is why the Amazons have great warriors in the first place. Because they all aspire to become strong.

Haki is the "chi" or "chakra" or whatever in One Piece.
This is an established fact now.

Oh, really? Point out where they establish this "fact", please.

Just calling something an "established fact" doesn't make it so. Your rhetoric is really shitty, dude.

[Sentenal]

That last "therefore" simply does not follow from what you have established. All you have shown is that the Amazons are more skilled at ONE PARTICULAR "haki-using skill." I am saying that HAKI ISN'T A SKILL. I am saying that Haki is a reflection of a person's skill and determination. Luffy has his OWN haki, and it's called the King's Disposition, and he has shown it about a dozen times by now. Basically every time he's yelled while punching somebody out. (Crocodile, Enel, the Tenryubiito guy for example)

Raleigh was able to fight with Kizaru, and Logia user, because of his use of Haki. When Luffy fought Crocodile, the only time he could hit Crocodile, was when either one of them was wet. Not via Haki. If Luffy was using his Haki in the first 2 battles, why was Raleigh able to hit a Logia user, and not Luffy? The only conclusion we can draw from this, is either Luffy's Haki sucks, or he didn't use Haki.

When Luffy fought Enel, he could hit Enel because Luffy is rubber, and Enel's natural enemy. If there was any Haki used in that battle, it was unnoticeable.

When Luffy fought Aokiji, and if he was using Haki in that battle, why was he unable to damage Aokiji? Again, why would Raleigh be able to do something like that with Haki, and yet Luffy not (assuming Luffy used Haki against Aokiji)? Again, the only two conclusions to draw from this battle, is either Luffy's haki is useless, or he didn't use it.

The Amazons using Haki time and time again in all of their attacks (or most of their attacks). Not only do they use it, the effects of it are clearly seen, and it is stated to be because of the Haki. Are the generic Amazons stronger, or more determined than Luffy, when Luffy fought Aokiji? Or Kuma? If what you are saying is true, with Haki simply reflecting a person's determination and skill, then you more or less saying that Amazons are stronger and more determined than Luffy.

Even Luffy's Haki having a specific name, meaning that it has been classified, proves that it isn't just determination. I mean, how the hell would you classify determination? Or is getting mad and hitting something really hard (what you claim Luffy's haki to be) something only Luffy can do? Or maybe everyone has the Kings Determination (The haki of "getting mad and hitting something"), every time they get mad and hit something.

Also, it's pretty stupid to say that the Amazons are not "strong and determined" just because the strongest of them leave the island. They are a race of warriors, and they value strength above everything else. That is why they are so determined to become great warriors. Indeed, that is why the Amazons have great warriors in the first place. Because they all aspire to become strong.

I'm saying that relative to Luffy, in various points in the past story thus far, the Amazons have not been as strong or determined as Luffy, yet they use Haki better. I'm not saying they are weak, just they are weaker than Luffy.

Btw, I doubt Margaret is "determined" to kill Luff, when she fires her Haki arrows at him, seeing as how she has saved his life several times, and doesn't really seem like his enemy. Yet even with that lack of actual determination, her arrows are said to contain haki.

Oh, really? Point out where they establish this "fact", please.

Attacks being said to contain Haki, and then said attacks are stronger, or different than before. Or maybe Haki removing a bomb off of someone's neck, or allowing damage to a Logia user, or splitting the sky, or knocking someone unconscious, or Haki being something that is even classified into different types. All of this makes Haki a skill to be used.

[Assertn]

Luffy has his OWN haki, and it's called the King's Disposition, and he has shown it about a dozen times by now. Basically every time he's yelled while punching somebody out.

You clearly don't know what "King's Disposition" is, which is a good thing cause it would be a spoiler to talk about it here.

[chambers]

come on poop you have to recognize that as soon as the mention of inbuing a WEAPON with haki made it into somthing completley different than what it you think it means. You can no more imbue a weapon with your ambition than you can with love or anything else that is abstract. Previous to the showing of WEAPONS using haki i would have almost agreed with you, but now its clear its the "next step" in power. Just like for the marines i think in the future we will see many more "base" marines using techniques like soru such as coby and hippo.

But we dont even know if it IS the amazons who have imbued the arrows/bows with haki, it could have been somone else, kind of like a blessing from boa or somthing.

And i tend to be more interested in what somone else mentioned at this point in time.... what happens to kidd, law and all the other novas!

[poopdeville]

come on poop you have to recognize that as soon as the mention of inbuing a WEAPON with haki made it into somthing completley different than what it you think it means. You can no more imbue a weapon with your ambition than you can with love or anything else that is abstract. ...

Isn't that exactly what Zoro's master was talking about?

http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/194/15/
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/194/16/

Zoro says he "transfers his thoughts through his sword" here:
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/195/18/

@Assertn: you're right, sorry! I'm not a fan of the manga and anime being basically in the same arc. It's hard to keep track of what has happened where.

[Assertn]

Isn't that exactly what Zoro's master was talking about?

http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/194/15/
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/194/16/

Zoro says he "transfers his thoughts through his sword" here:
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/195/18/

Now you're just drawing assumptions. There's no significant correlation between cutting steel and having a sword imbued with haki.

Just like how there's no significant correlation to say, Luffy's gear 2nd vs Soru.