Naruto Chapter 500

[unandpw]

How would what you linked be of any relevance to the Madara = Obito theory?

It's a general observance. Conspiracy theorists will believe anything.

[Sidnne]

It's a general observance. Conspiracy theorists will believe anything.

It's a very general observance... But I fail to see what it has to do with any conspiracy theory? It neither supports nor disputes "Madara = Obito."

[unandpw]

I'm saying that if there are people willing to believe Madara = Obito, then there are some who will believe that the latest Madara isn't the one behind the mask. Don't over-think this. We'll probably find out next week.

[Sidnne]

I'm saying that if there are people willing to believe Madara = Obito, then there are some who will believe that the latest Madara isn't the one behind the mask. Don't over-think this. We'll probably find out next week.

OK... but you still have yet to explain how two pictures of this mask has anything at all to do with Madara = Obito...

And I think it's pretty clear that Madara is not the person behind the Tobi mask at any point. We have already seen Madara's face plenty of times, so we know what he looks like. There is no reason to go through such great lengths to hide a face that we have already seen, especially if he is telling people that he is Madara. If Tobi = Madara, then Kishi is a much worse writer than any of us ever imagined.
EDIT: Then there's also the interesting fact that both Minato and Kushina refer to him as "The one in the mask" and not "Madara."

[poopdeville]

Everybody in Konoha thought Madara was dead. Jiraiya and Itachi the only ones (we know of) who had doubts about the story. So there's no reason for Minato and Kuina to think it was him.

[Sidnne]

Everybody in Konoha thought Madara was dead. Jiraiya and Itachi the only ones (we know of) who had doubts about the story. So there's no reason for Minato and Kuina to think it was him.

Good . Now try to think about this in the context of this being a story, written by a human author, being read by a human audience, which already has knowledge and awareness of the situation.

[RyougaZell]

Everybody in Konoha thought Madara was dead. Jiraiya and Itachi the only ones (we know of) who had doubts about the story. So there's no reason for Minato and Kuina to think it was him.

Didn't Kuina die by falling from the stairs, making Zoro want to wish to become the best swordsman? Oh wait... its just as Aizen planned.

[unandpw]

OK... but you still have yet to explain how two pictures of this mask has anything at all to do with Madara = Obito...

I used "Madara = Obito" as an example of the type of people who would believe this. It wasn't meant link the two theories. I could have just as well said "magic bullet people." Like I said earlier, I was referring to conspiracy theorists in general.

[poopdeville]

Good . Now try to think about this in the context of this being a story, written by a human author, being read by a human audience, which already has knowledge and awareness of the situation.

It would be a plothole if Minato and Kushina knew it was Madara. That's the context.

So your complaint amounts to "It might MAYBE be somebody other than Madara, despite the fact that they can't have known he is the number one suspect, and they are acting exactly how they should have even if it was Madara."

Fine, it COULD be somebody else. The rest of the manga doesn't support the theory, especially since Jiraiya and Itachi went out of their way to confirm, in a narrative sense, that he is Madara.

Let's not forget that you were whining at me for thinking Madara COULD have been Danzou, about this time last year. I had a stronger argument for it then than you do now.

[Sam98034]

Dude, what the hell? Way to spoil it for me! Can you please stop!?!? I was really interested in seeing who it could possibly be behind the mask. Just don't tell me what happens to Naruto, the 4th, and Kushina next week, ok?

I'm preaching to the Madara = Obito crowd.

Oh yeah, I was just kidding. I thought the last part gave it away since we all know what happend to Naruto, the 4th, and Kushina. Sorry I started a Madara = Obito mess as well, unintentionally.

[Sidnne]

It would be a plothole if Minato and Kushina knew it was Madara. That's the context.

So your complaint amounts to "It might MAYBE be somebody other than Madara, despite the fact that they can't have known he is the number one suspect, and they are acting exactly how they should have even if it was Madara."

Fine, it COULD be somebody else. The rest of the manga doesn't support the theory, especially since Jiraiya and Itachi went out of their way to confirm, in a narrative sense, that he is Madara.

Let's not forget that you were whining at me for thinking Madara COULD have been Danzou, about this time last year. I had a stronger argument for it then than you do now.

It's no more a plothole for Minato and Kushina to know its Madara than it is for Jiraiya and Itachi. You say Jiraiya and Itachi confirmed it. How? Did they do DNA testing on him? Minato at least, and likely Kushina as well, FOUGHT him, which is certainly more than Jiraiya did. Let us also not forget that Minato was aware of many thing, including Akatsuki and Jiraiya's death, because he was "watching from inside Naruto." Naruto was told that the guy in the mask was Madara, so if Minato was watching from inside Naruto, wouldn't he have then been aware that the guy in the mask was called Madara? Yet, he still chose to call him "the one in the mask" and not Madara. If Minato fought this guy and was watching from within Naruto, then it wouldn't be much of a plothole for him to know it was Madara, would it?

But, you're still not looking at it in the proper context, as usual. You are trying to view it as if you are a character living the story, not as a reader reading a written story for an audience; that has always been your problem and why you are always wrong.

You're really bringing up something from last year? Really? I did no whining, I simply told you that you were wrong, which you were. You had no argument last year and you have no argument now. You were an idiot a year ago, just like you're an idiot today. I guess not much changes in a year.

[poopdeville]

The reason I brought something from last year up is because your argument now is weaker than mine was then. If you don't like my old argument, you shouldn't like yours now. It is too easy to hold other people to a higher standard than you hold yourself. Hypocrisy.

Let's compare. I said there were some things in common between Madara and Danzou, including:

1) Their training methods. Madara made the Uchiha kill each other off as a training method. Madara made the Land of Mist kill each other off as a training method. Danzou made Roots kill each other off as a training method.
2) Their politics, including the manipulation of Pein, which they both took part in. Also includes the building of personal armies with the backing of the Hidden Villages (Roots, as compared to the Land of Mist coup)
3) Their ages, similar looks, and conveniently placed mask/eye hole.

All of this can plausibly be understood as foreshadowing. Yeah, I was wrong. It was still a stronger argument than yours.

Your argument: Madara is somebody else because characters acting AS THEY SHOULD "means" that he is somebody else. Really? That logic is weak.

[Sidnne]

The reason I brought something from last year up is because your argument now is weaker than mine was then. If you don't like my old argument, you shouldn't like yours now. It is too easy to hold other people to a higher standard than you hold yourself. Hypocrisy.

Let's compare. I said there were some things in common between Madara and Danzou, including:

1) Their training methods. Madara made the Uchiha kill each other off as a training method. Madara made the Land of Mist kill each other off as a training method. Danzou made Roots kill each other off as a training method.
2) Their politics, including the manipulation of Pein, which they both took part in. Also includes the building of personal armies with the backing of the Hidden Villages (Roots, as compared to the Land of Mist coup)
3) Their ages, similar looks, and conveniently placed mask/eye hole.

All of this can plausibly be understood as foreshadowing. Yeah, I was wrong. It was still a stronger argument than yours.

Your argument: Madara is somebody else because characters acting AS THEY SHOULD "means" that he is somebody else. Really? That logic is weak.

As I told you a year ago, your #1 and 2 arguments were incorrect. So you're argument was essentially "Danzou's eye is bandaged."

And if you think my argument on this matter is really "Madara is somebody else because characters acting AS THEY SHOULD "means" that he is somebody else," then you only prove once again that your reading comprehension is abysmal at best. And as I've suggested to you over and over on these threads, go read the posts again and again, 100 times each if need be, until you understand what is being said, because it's clear that you don't.

[DB_Hunter]

Get a room you two... it's gonna be Orochimaru.

[Yukimura]

Indeed, at this point the Madara debate seems pretty trivial. People can eternally cling to one idea or another by selectively labeling certain pieces of expository information as misinformation in order to make their theory true.