Hanasaku Iroha

[shinta|hikari]

I dislike it when weakness drives people to hurt others. Like you said, a lot of people are weak, so I don't think Minko deserves leeway just because she is. If she was just weak and self-destructed, I won't hate her for it.

[fireheart]

Normal people are pretty weak. Only a few are strong, especially in the developed countries where your parents provide your food, clothes, and shelter and you don't need to fight for your life every day. In less fortunate places only the strong would survive. However, I personally like to watch anime where the characters are strong in some ways precisely because it's different from the reality.

That was the whole point of the post that people are weak and that I think it's weird to condemn someone for being so, as I said I draw parallels to schools and think she needs help but like you said Ohana will most likely save her. Well that I can understand that people want to see something different from reality at least.

I dislike it when weakness drives people to hurt others. Like you said, a lot of people are weak, so I don't think Minko deserves leeway just because she is. If she was just weak and self-destructed, I won't hate her for it.

Actually if she was weak and self-destructed that would have been worse imo, at least this way someone (Ohana) will help her though since it's anime it probably would have happened if she self-destructed as well. Anyway I don't think it's just her weakness I mean she does have some legitimate reasons to be angry at Ohana after all. There is the bad first impression Ohana left with destroying her plants, getting her criticized and slapped by the boss and there is some truth to the fact that it's Ohanas fault that the author guy can act as he does and yell at her. You don't just forgive a stranger for those things that fast even if she's in the wrong with her actions towards Ohana.

[shinta|hikari]

Actually if she was weak and self-destructed that would have been worse imo, at least this way someone (Ohana) will help her though since it's anime it probably would have happened if she self-destructed as well.

What I meant about the self-destruction comment is, you shouldn't intentionally hurt others just because you are weak. The alternative was just an example, not an ideal.

You are making judgments based on what might happen in the anime, not on what has happened. The result of Minko's wrong actions to the plot progression should not matter.

Minko has reasons to be angry at Ohana, but those being legitimate are debatable at best. All of Ohana's actions were out of good will, and while that does not absolve her of the negative results of those actions, she also does not deserve the type of animosity being directed towards her. This is even more true in the 2nd episode, when Ohana's actions did not even directly concern Minko. Minko was just jealous that she can't cook as well, and angry that she was compared to Ohana. She should actually be angry at the young chef for his lack of tact, not Ohana.

EDIT: I would also like to add that unlike Kraco, I actually do like weak characters just as much as I like strong ones. I just dislike Minko for being weak and an ass.

From a writing perspective, I think Minko weakness and overall bad attitude serves as an amazing foil to Ohana's absurd strength of character and good intentions. Ohana looks all the more heroic despite her constant blunders when placed beside Minko. If there were only nice and capable characters around, I think that I might not like Ohana so much due to her constant mistakes. The trial posed by the conquering of Minko also allows Ohana to show off her good qualities. So while I am not fond of Minko as a character, I think she is necessary for the story to be as good as it is so far.

[Ryllharu]

What I meant about the self-destruction comment is, you shouldn't intentionally hurt others just because you are weak. The alternative was just an example, not an ideal.

Minko has reasons to be angry at Ohana, but those being legitimate are debatable at best. All of Ohana's actions were out of good will, and while that does not absolve her of the negative results of those actions, she also does not deserve the type of animosity being directed towards her. This is even more true in the 2nd episode, when Ohana's actions did not even directly concern Minko. Minko was just jealous that she can't cook as well, and angry that she was compared to Ohana. She should actually be angry at the young chef for his lack of tact, not Ohana.

You've never met anyone who appears to be miserable and takes it out on everyone? I think that is one of the things that makes Minko such a realistic and strong character thus far. I've known at least a dozen people like that in my lifetime. It doesn't matter whether Ohana's actions were full of good intentions, everlasting love, or selfish desire to fit in. People like Minko as she is now just lash out anyway.

It's not a matter of whether or not Minko's reasons for being angry all the time are legitimate to you, they're legitimate grievances in Minko's mind, evidenced by her taking it out on Ohana in the first place. She's not going to take it out on Tohru because he is her superior. She takes it out on whomever she can.

The only way to fix the attitude of a person like Minko is precisely what Ohana is doing. You be nice to them anyway, over and over and over even if they don't deserve it. Ohana doesn't have that patience, and nearly getting into a car accident and realizing how scary it would be to die set her off, so she's going for her shortcut, which is to feed them food they hate.

I fail to see how this behavior makes Minko undeserving of any leeway over anyone else. It's not a matter of excuses one way or another. Much of Ohana's behavior is equally inexcusable. I find it disgusting that it would somehow be better if Minko was self-destructive in her loathing rather than the simple verbal abuse (and it barely qualifies as that) she's using. It makes it sound like you'd prefer it if she were nearly suicidal or some broken, pitiable KEY-series heroine.

[shinta|hikari]

You've never met anyone who appears to be miserable and takes it out on everyone?

When did I say that? I said I hate people like her, not that I haven't met any of them.

I fail to see how this behavior makes Minko undeserving of any leeway over anyone else.

What I said was Minko should not get more slack than other people. People should be treated equally. Do you disagree?

Much of Ohana's behavior is equally inexcusable.

I disagree. Making stupid mistakes due to being almost too earnest is a far cry from constantly telling someone to "die." This is probably one of the worse ways to verbally attack someone, since it negates their value completely, their existence. Minko also says it like she means it, so that makes it worse.

I find it disgusting that it would somehow be better if Minko was self-destructive in her loathing rather than the simple verbal abuse (and it barely qualifies as that) she's using. It makes it sound like you'd prefer it if she were nearly suicidal or some broken, pitiable KEY-series heroine.

I simply believe that people don't have the right to hurt others just because of their selfish reasons. I don't want to see anyone destroying themselves, but that is better than what Minko is doing, which is hurting others as she hurts herself at the same time. I also see it as more than just "simple verbal abuse" (like I mentioned above), and so does Ohana. She already knew what she said in the truck was terribly wrong even before they almost died in an accident. She was taking it back right after she said it.

[Ryllharu]

What I said was Minko should not get more slack than other people. People should be treated equally. Do you disagree?

No, but you seem to. You give Minko no benefit of the doubt while extending limitless pardons to Ohana's behavior.

I disagree. Making stupid mistakes due to being almost too earnest is a far cry from constantly telling someone to "die." This is probably one of the worse ways to verbally attack someone, since it negates their value completely, their existence. Minko also says it like she means it, so that makes it worse.

...and Ohana isn't tearing up plants the moment she arrives because she dislikes their appearance? She isn't ignoring her timid mentor and going off on her own? Not seeing if something is permissible before she does anything? Those aren't simply "stupid mistakes," those are potentially huge violations in a hospitality-centric business like the ryokan. What if she had injured or killed a customer because she thought Minko's bed was moldy?

Moreover, how do you even know that Minko means it? From the way she reacted when Ohana called her out on it, it looks like the opposite. By the look of surprise and confusion, she never considered anything like that until Ohana stated it. She was using it as a nasty rebuke, little else. The interpretation you put on it comes off extremely bombastic and self-righteous. Minko obviously didn't see it as anything different from calling someone and idiot or moron.

I simply believe that people don't have the right to hurt others just because of their selfish reasons. I don't want to see anyone destroying themselves, but that is better than what Minko is doing, which is hurting others as she hurts herself at the same time. I also see it as more than just "simple verbal abuse" (like I mentioned above), and so does Ohana.

She isn't hurting herself at all, she is only lashing out at others whenever she is hurt. It's quite different. If you really think that someone hurting themselves is somehow better than what Minko doesn't think of anything more than an insult, I wonder if you've ever known a cutter.

[shinta|hikari]

I give Minko the benefit of the doubt. I even said so before, so I'll just quote it:

Yes, that is what I was trying to say. I also understand her feelings, but that is no excuse for her behavior.
I don't think she is the world's biggest asshole either. Anyone who can care that much about cooking can't be a total ass (i.e. Gordon Ramsey).

I just think that from what has been shown in the show, Ohana has clearly good intentions. Minko's we don't know yet, and at the very least they aren't productive.

I also said that Minko says it like she means it. I don't know if she does and I agree that she probably doesn't, but she appears to, and that is what Ohana sees as well. It isn't only my interpretation. It is implied that Ohana saw it like that as well. I personally think that some words should not be said regardless if you mean them in the worst sense (i.e. racial slurs, sexist terms), but that is just me.

I think Kraco stated it well enough when he said that Minko is also hurting herself with what she is doing so I won't add to it. I also think you took the term "self-destructive" to the extreme. Your comparison takes a really bad case of self-destructive behavior and compares it to the best case scenario for verbally wishing another's death. I actually only had self-blame, and light depression in mind when I said self-destructive.

Anyway, I really don't want to argue about this anymore. I think the root of the disagreement is from the negative value I place in the insult "Die," so if you don't see it as much more than saying "idiot" and if you believe Minko is the same, I can accept that. It would certainly better my view of her if that were the case.