Fate/Zero

[Ryllharu]

Isn't Saber a special case? She can't go incorporeal because she's not dead [source: FSN fuck off whiners]

It's like a trickling drain on a master just to participate, but like Arch said, some Servants use a lot more mana than others when performing attacks. Which is why all Servants have the ability to consume mana from other sources to supplement their strength. Some outright murder Fuyuki citizens the simple way (4th War Caster, Gilgamesh), some have special methods that don't necessarily kill (5th War Caster, 5th War Rider).
[again, per FSN]

But some burn mana just by existing. Any hero summoned as Berserker does this. Any time Berserker fights, Kariya loses huge amounts of mana. Ilya didn't suffer as much because her mana capacity was as monstrous as her Servant.

[Buffalobiian]

Okay, this went off from what I was trying to illustrate, so I'll backtrack/confirm a bit.

I agree that servants require mana to exist in the war.

Saber's used a ton of mana for Excalibur and also exerted herself fighting those tentacles, but so far Lancer hasn't really shown that he even uses mana in the first place.

Read: Saber vs Lancer is back to the Dock fight even if she is lower on mana than Lancer. Lancer may have more mana, but his Noble Phantasm is "always on", so it doesn't give him an edge. Saber was reluctant to use her Excalibur blast in the earlier fight to not give her identity away, so her inability to fire it soon now doesn't disadvantage her.* If they were having a duel that tested their endurance then their Mana difference could be be pivotal but I do not consider it likely.

* = of course, circumstances have actually changed. Everyone knows she's Arthuria now so she can vaporise shit without trying to hide her identity at the same time.

But some burn mana just by existing.

I have the impression that Berserker burns mana like crazy when he's corporeal, but not when he's tucked away as a ghost.

[Ryllharu]

You make it sound like Saber will run out of mana/prana. She's being properly supplied by Kiritsugu, it's not like the 5th War. Excalibur is draining, but it's not going to put her at a huge disadvantage. She just can't fire it in succession, plus it takes a while to charge.

It's like Lina Inverse's Dragon Slave from the movies (not the Slayers tv series where it is used comically). Actually, the special effects used in this episode make it appear very similar to the movie kind.

[Buffalobiian]

You make it sound like Saber will run out of mana/prana. She's being properly supplied by Kiritsugu, it's not like the 5th War. Excalibur is draining, but it's not going to put her at a huge disadvantage. She just can't fire it in succession, plus it takes a while to charge.

I think she will given the following conditions:

1) Both masters have the same amount of mana reserve to supply their servants
2) Both servants only obtain mana from their one master
3) Both servants use mana at a rate that is faster than that which can be regenerated by their master
4) Both servants engage in a materialised, equally matched fist fight only
5) Both servants burn equal amounts of mana pts/second during this fight.

[Xelbair]

1) Both masters have the same amount of mana reserve to supply their servants
2) Both servants only obtain mana from their one master
3) Both servants use mana at a rate that is faster than that which can be regenerated by their master
4) Both servants engage in a materialised, equally matched fist fight only
5) Both servants burn equal amounts of mana pts/second during this fight.

1) Flase - it is not the same amount - you've got rogue magus vs archmagus here.
3) true - but only in combat(with one obvious exception in F/SN).
5) false - saber uses mana burst with her attacks - which drain A LOT more mana in exchange for massive bonus to strength of the attack.

[Buffalobiian]

[Shin-S] Fate Zero OP2 Single - to the beginning (FLAC) [Kalafina].zip
[Shin-S] Fate Zero OP2 Single - to the beginning [Kalafina].zip

[shinta|hikari]

Episode 03

Kyaaaa~ Kiritsugu!!! <3<3<3

[Archangel]

NOW THAT'S HOW YOU FIGHT IN A FUCKING GRAIL WAR!!!

Really puts the fifth war to shame in terms of strategy.

[shinta|hikari]

It helps that Kayneth was a fucking idiot. If he had any brains, he should have realized how honor obsessed Saber was, and should have called Lancer to save his fiance using the command seal instead.

Lancer was awesome. That rage from the dishonor he received was really well delivered, and was a distinct contrast to the smile he showed when he fell in love with Saber's honor.

[Buffalobiian]

My biggest question here was how Iri felt about all this. She was disturbed, certainly, and their positioning symbolised their relative positions very well:

Saber at one end, Kiritsugu at the other, Irisviel in the middle (sort of, she's closer to Kiritsugu), being able to converse with both of them.

I think in the end, she can't fully agree with how Kiritsugu does things, but trusts his inner self and knows that he's only doing terrible acts for the sake of a better cause that will be worth it.

I don't get the priest though. He's got an entire supply of command spells. It leaves the door wide open to corruption.

Archibald redeemed himself a fair bit this episode. While he's a dumbass and all.. I was surprised he (still) loved Sola-Ui that much.

[Archangel]

Archibald redeemed himself a fair bit this episode. While he's a dumbass and all.. I was surprised he (still) loved Sola-Ui that much.

I don't think that was ever in question, if anything it was the reason why he gave Lancer such a hard time.

I just honestly love the way Kiritsugu handles himself in this war. He's not about to let his servant get in the way of what could be an easy victory and he's always one step ahead. Miles away of all the bulshit Shirou put us through.

[Ryllharu]

My biggest question here was how Iri felt about all this. She was disturbed, certainly, and their positioning symbolised their relative positions very well:

Saber at one end, Kiritsugu at the other, Irisviel in the middle (sort of, she's closer to Kiritsugu), being able to converse with both of them.

I think in the end, she can't fully agree with how Kiritsugu does things, but trusts his inner self and knows that he's only doing terrible acts for the sake of a better cause that will be worth it.

I agree with shinta, any change in her behavior became clear minutes later that she was just barely holding it together hiding her health issues. She doesn't want Kiritsugu to find out not only because she doesn't want him to worry, but also because she doesn't want him to lose his composure in public.

I'm convinced that while she is more sympathetic to Saber's disdain for Kiritsugu's methods, she's not in any way opposed to how he is doing things. The Einzberns are not good-hearted magi. They harbor no illusions about how the wars are fought, since they are one of the original families. Even her daughter, Ilya, is one of the most pragmatic and cruel magus in FSN, and look how happy and innocent she had been raised by her parents. She was never opposed to using less straightforward means, in addition to just having Berserker smash everything.

Iri does not share the pure-hearted naiveté hidden by bluster that Rin does, the knightly stupidity that Shirou does, or the righteousness that Archibald did and even Kariya seems to have in his own level of sacrifice. She's kind, but incredibly stern when she needs to be. In episode 8, she was asking that Maiya shoot Kirei in the back while she held him in place, before they found out how much of a monster he was first hand.

[shinta|hikari]

Iri always knew what he did, but this was the first time she saw it. That is what disturbed her, but her odd behavior was likely due to her health issues than any disdain towards Kiritsugu.

Saber's understanding of Kiritsugu came as a pleasant surprise. It seems she can be perceptive at times.

[shinta|hikari]

I love Kiritsugu characters. Pragmatic yet idealistic, cold yet struggling, cruel yet kind, powerful yet weak.

I love your sig btw. I was going to make a SaberXLancer one until he freaked me out with his bloodshot eye cursing.

Kayneth knew that his fiance was just being manipulated by the mole. It is not like she truly loved Lancer for any genuine reason.

[Archangel]

Regardless of him knowing or not it was still one hell of a kick in the nuts.

Let me know if you find any good Kiritsugu pics for an avatar.

[David75]

A nice little dark episode.
I know Archibald has been through a lot, but really not being able to understand the single truth the contract only affects Kiritsugu AFTER it is agreed and does not even mention his servant...
Even if you don't know Kiritsugu has an underling, you do know he's got a servant.
You really should be able to understand that Kiritsugu could have asked Saber to kill Archibald and Sola before he is bound by the contract...

Another Lancer bites the dust in a suicide, I was a little surprised he disappeared so quickly.

[Kraco]

A really powerful episode, and the only glitch was indeed the way Archibald fell so easily to the trap. He had just priorly cheated a command spell out of Kirei's old man and shot him right after, so having the same befall to himself was kind of dodgy. Not that I'd yet be willing to believe Risei is dead for good, but Kayneth no doubt is. I guess he lost his cool completely, with Sola-Ui in enemy hands and Lancer never behaving like he wanted.

This war really highlights how amateurish the next one will be. Only Kirei and Zouken are any good in the fifth war, and both of them are too twisted shadow lurkers to really fight like this.

Lancer's fate in this and the next war almost makes me think the whole class is cursed.

[shinta|hikari]

No naive idealist can love the mage-killer.

[Buffalobiian]

I agree with shinta, any change in her behavior became clear minutes later that she was just barely holding it together hiding her health issues.

I would have thought that was the case had she taken a different approach. She seemed awfully critical of him this episode. Outwardly/objectively critical doesn't equate to inner disagreement (I'm a prime example of that). Given the way she usually trusts Kiritsugu though, I had to wonder if she wanted to hear Kiritsugu's explanation herself as much as she wanted him to say his feelings to Saber.

I don't feel this way from just this episode. It stems from her scenes during and after the Archibald fight at the Einzbern castle. Her face suggested she was either slightly unsure of Kiritsugu's methods while believing he's human or simply out of worry that his actions will cause a rift between his servant and himself.

As for Einzbern upbringing, it's true that Einzberns haven't been shown to be good hearted Magi, but their status as being one of the original families and all doesn't matter. Daddy Tohsaka's a good counter-example. I do think that my perception of the magi ways has been changed somewhat though. Archibald's shooting of the priest this episode blurred the stark contrast that was established by the likes of Tohsaka and Kiritsugu.

In episode 8, she was asking that Maiya shoot Kirei in the back while she held him in place, before they found out how much of a monster he was first hand.

...

I don't know what to think of this one. Like.. Saber's all honourable and stuff if the enemy's a decent person. She had no problem ganging up on the sea monster last time. I see it as perfectly reasonable for two girls to help each other when some man attacks them at night..




Anyway, to bring it back to the point.. I suppose Iri's concerned/unsure look at the castle and her questioning ways this episode were all due to her trying to maximise the relationship/understanding between Kiritsugu and Saber.

[Ryllharu]

Mentioning that they are one of the original families means that they have fought in every war since its inception, so they know honor may not always be present. Even children's card game series don't pretend that everything is done honorably. Honor-bound combat isn't called an "ideal" for no reason.

Rin is a counter-example. We know that she gets raised believing all magi are great and wonderful. Of her father, she sees him making unicorns and stuff out of crystals, not burning her uncle alive. She doesn't yet realize how brutal things really are. Tokiomi is largely sheltering her. You'll note he had no such reservations about his other daughter.

If it was the 5th War, Iri would have left him tied up to the tree. Instead, with zero hesitation, she asked Maiya to kill him while she held him in place. Saber isn't a super-idealist because of how her reign ultimately went, so she wouldn't have objected to the killing itself, but shooting someone in the back while they are helpless is not the definition of honorable. However, Iri knew that was the only way they could stop Kirei (even if it ultimately failed).