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Thread: Goblin Slayer

  1. #21
    Linerunner MFauli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buffalobiian View Post
    Rape is more akin to torture than it is to murder. On screen, both rape and torture can trigger the same uncomfortable emotional response as we watch someone suffer and have their human rights violated.
    As opposed to ... no 'uncomfortable emotional response' when watching someone get killed, headshotted, stomped, sliced, etc.?

    Yeah, sorry, that was a weak argument, Buff.

  2. #22
    Yorha Unit- shinta|hikari's Avatar
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    I attribute it to the audience being so used to death in entertainment that they no longer feel the emotional response.

    My only concern about widely including rape in stories is the impact it might have on rape survivors. Death is something no one has actually survived, so that's less of an issue with killing.
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  3. #23
    Linerunner MFauli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shinta|hikari View Post
    I attribute it to the audience being so used to death in entertainment that they no longer feel the emotional response.

    My only concern about widely including rape in stories is the impact it might have on rape survivors. Death is something no one has actually survived, so that's less of an issue with killing.
    Relatives of murder victims exist, too, though. And if we stop including elements that might trigger someone, we better stop writing dramatic stories altogether. Also South Park.

  4. #24
    Yorha Unit- shinta|hikari's Avatar
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    I didn't say to stop writing about it. I said my concern was in widely including rape in stories.

    Relatives of murder also get hurt/relive trauma when watching murder stories, which is why some avoid them. I was speaking of death in general, which can be duels, war, crime, accidents, disasters, superhero action movies.

    If we include rape on a much wider scale, it'll be harder for rape survivors to avoid reliving trauma.
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  5. #25
    Awesome user with default custom title KrayZ33's Avatar
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    Why would you include rape in shounen stories.

    In the other formats, it's not that uncommon, the "nearly raped" stuff is actually pretty common. (even in shounen)

    That being said, the act of killing is mostly swift. Rape isn't.
    It's the same with torture scenes in general. No one minds the killing spree in John Wick, most scenes in Saw however are somewhat irritating.


    You'd also alienate half the viewerbase's waifus like that
    Last edited by KrayZ33; Tue, 10-09-2018 at 03:08 PM.

  6. #26
    Vampiric Minion Kraco's Avatar
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    The human brain is not capable of processing nothingness, so death has a different impact from rape or other forms of torture, which anyone can imagine to some degree, some more than others if they have gone through considerable pain. Of course for some brainwashed poor bastards death might even appear to be a gate to a better place. Seeing violent death in practice might still be scary, but in fiction it relies entirely on imagination, wherein lies the problem. If it's a truly gruesome death, it might help.

  7. #27
    Linerunner MFauli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    Why would you include rape in shounen stories.

    In the other formats, it's not that uncommon, the "nearly raped" stuff is actually pretty common. (even in shounen)

    That being said, the act of killing is mostly swift. Rape isn't.
    It's the same with torture scenes in general. No one minds the killing spree in John Wick, most scenes in Saw however are somewhat irritating.


    You'd also alienate half the viewerbase's waifus like that
    Which is exactly the issue. We're so used to fictional murder that nobody bats an eye when it happens. But rape rarely takes place, thus the reactions range from disgust to 'so edgy'. And that when rape is a much lesser crime (I won't debate that. Anybody who claim's he'd prefer death over rape is a psycho).

    And no, I don't want to add rape to shounen. I want rape where it makes sense for the story. For example, that's why the Purge-movies are complete bogus imo. They're saying that once a year, all crimes are ok - and they think murder is what people would do? LOL. Most people would rob/steal stuff. And 2nd most people would try to fuck (aka rape) all the hot girls they don't have a chance with otherwise. Murder is so grave, most people wouldn't do it even if it was legal for a day. But in the Purge-movies, no rape happens. That just kills all believability for me.

    As for anime, there should have been rape in Naruto. The show even mentions the dangers for kunoichi, but then nothing ever happens. Or Boku no Hero Academia - they probably don't even know what rape is, lol,but I don't blame it, the villains don't even kill anyone.

    Matter of fact is, rape needs to stop being made a taboo. It hapebs every day irl, it should happen reasonably often in fiction, too, especially when murder is shown ad nauseum.

  8. #28
    Family Friendly Mascot Buffalobiian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MFauli View Post
    As opposed to ... no 'uncomfortable emotional response' when watching someone get killed, headshotted, stomped, sliced, etc.?

    Yeah, sorry, that was a weak argument, Buff.
    Pfft.

    People get killed on screen all the time without knowing they even died. Try torturing someone without them knowing or screaming.

    And would I feel less uncomfortable with someone who was raped while unconscious? You bet I would. The victim would too.

    People getting getting headshotted and stomped is gruesome. Conscious rape and torture is cruel.

    That's what feels uncomfortable.

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  9. #29
    Linerunner MFauli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buffalobiian View Post
    Pfft.

    People get killed on screen all the time without knowing they even died. Try torturing someone without them knowing or screaming.

    And would I feel less uncomfortable with someone who was raped while unconscious? You bet I would. The victim would too.

    People getting getting headshotted and stomped is gruesome. Conscious rape and torture is cruel.

    That's what feels uncomfortable.
    Them screaming is the privilege of being ALIVE. As opposed to being DEAD.

    It's fucked up that you brush away the severity of murder with 'it happens all the time'.

  10. #30
    Awesome user with default custom title KrayZ33's Avatar
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    That's not what he was saying.



    Look at it this way.
    People choose to die to escape from what they are suffering from.
    Death is even considered an appropiate punishment in some countries (not that I'd agree).

    So it's not really difficult to grasp that people are okay with death on screen, "they deserve it".

    Whenever people get *butchered* on screen over a long(er) period of time, it has pretty much the same effect as torture/rape and that's why you see this stuff in 18+ movies instead of +16 ones.

    And it's not a taboo either, it's certainly rarely shown, for reason already mentioned, but it happens in stories rather frequently.
    Never watched the Purge movies, obviously it's a trash movie considering their plot, but maybe they mentioned it somewhere that "you can kill/steal/rape/fuck anyone you want!"

    It's more a question about what the director/writer wants the movie to be.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; Wed, 10-10-2018 at 12:22 AM.

  11. #31
    Family Friendly Mascot Buffalobiian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MFauli View Post
    Them screaming is the privilege of being ALIVE. As opposed to being DEAD.

    It's fucked up that you brush away the severity of murder with 'it happens all the time'.
    Summary to date:

    #16 MFauli: (link)
    -Pointed out that murder is depicted more than rape in media.
    -Pointed out that rape is commonly considered "edgey" despite being less bad than murder (as per MFauli)
    -Suggests rape to be depicted more commonly in media to 'restore balance'.

    #20 Buff: (link)
    -Suggests rape is more comparable to torture than murder.
    -Suggests rape and torture triggers uncomfortable viewer response due to their depiction of suffering.

    #21 MFauli: (link)
    -Argues that getting "killed, headshotted, stomped, sliced" triggers a comparable level of discomfort.

    #27 MFauli: (link)
    -suggests audiences are numb to murder because of on-screen frequency.
    -urges for rape to be included in media when appropriate/realistic.
    -Then argues that rape should happen reasonably often in fiction too, since murder is frequent.

    #28 Buff: (link)
    -Argues that the victim's experience is a large factor in viewer discomfort.
    -Argues that murder without prior visual suffering or victim knowledge is less cruel than conscious rape and torture.
    -Points out difference between (graphic) gruesomeness and depicted cruelty as factors influencing viewer discomfort.
    -Suggests the latter is why rape is considered more uncomfortable than murder by some audiences.

    #29 MFauli: (link)
    -Argues that screaming, living victims are more well off than dead ones.
    -argues that Buff is fucked up for dismissing severity of murder to "it happens all the time".



    --------------




    Now..

    1) I agree that rape makes audiences feel more uncomfortable relative to murder, generally speaking.
    -I disagree that this is due to the frequency of depiction.
    -I suggest that rape is uncomfortable to watch in media because it shows physical suffering of the victim. It is this suffering that the audiences empathises with, and thus feels uncomfortable with.


    2) I argue that murder can impart less physical suffering to the victim, depending on how it happens. As such, it makes sense that viewers can be more accepting while watching them on screen. [1]


    3) I argue that there is no "balance" to speak of.
    -As suggested by others, on-screen depiction is also driven by the message/intent of the producer.
    -Crime rates of rape and murder have no bearing on how often they should appear on screen.
    -There is no role in media to alter rape/murder frequency on screen to reflect real life data.
    -Crime severity and viewer discomfort have no inherent connection.
    ----- For reasons stated above, murder carrying a higher legal penalty than rape despite being visually more tolerable makes sense.
    ----- Off-topic example: Stealing $1billion from a bank carries a higher penalty than stealing the purse of a granny, arguably speaking. The disgust one can feel towards the latter is reasonably explained by the audience more easily empathising with the granny's suffering post theft.





    Foot note:

    [1] -It's interesting that you mentioned that "anybody who claims he'd prefer death over rape is a psycho".
    Psychopathy is a mental health disorder characterised, amongst other things, by the lack of empathy of the person resulting in cruelty.

    By not empathising with your victim, the psychopath more freely beats the living shit out of them for whatever reason they had in mind.
    Non-psychopaths in general will be able to
    -empathise with the suffering of their victim,
    -feeling uncomfortable with this empathised suffering,
    -recognise this as "cruelty"
    -and stop.

    -Others have already touched on the fact that empathising with dead people is inherently more difficult for viewers, than empathising with survivors of trauma, or sufferers actively experiencing trauma.

    -As such, a person preferring to experience death without suffering than to endure rape would be quite reasonable, psychologically speaking in my opinion.

    If it's not Isuzu-chan Mii~

  12. #32
    Linerunner MFauli's Avatar
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    Sorry, Buff, but you're (unintentionally) forgetting about a crucial, very real part of all the killing in media: the terror of deadly fear, knowing that someone is out to end your life, or even knowing that there's no chance to survive to begin with.

    You keep saying how it's the torturous nature of rape that makes it uncomfortable, but the same goes for murder.

    If you intend to counter this with 'but it's usually not depicted that way' (which really wouldn't be true), let me make it clear for you that I'm not saying I want more full-length rape scenes, showing how the victim is raped. (We've got hentai anime for that🙈&#128039 No, it'd be enough to just show the beginning or aftermath of rape, or even talk about its existence.

    I just keep finding ridiculous how murder is often portayed as an ok thing, while rape is deemed 'edgy/unforgivable'. Fuck, lool at Vegeta. Murdered a ton of innnocent people all his life. But Gou forgives him and that ... makes him a good guy who gets to fimd happiness with his own family? Now imagime Vegeta raped some girl. Suddenly he'd be an irredeemable monster, lol. People are such stupid phonies when it comes to proper treatment of various crimes.

    In the end, I'm simply sick of murder being used so extremely lightly. It cheapens any story's 'weight' as well as offends the value of a person's life. I'm 3 episodes into ReRided. The heroes keep runming from inmidst gun fire successfully as if these villains were shooting with pea guns. That's also bs. :/

  13. #33
    Family Friendly Mascot Buffalobiian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MFauli
    Sorry, Buff, but you're (unintentionally) forgetting about a crucial, very real part of all the killing in media: the terror of deadly fear, knowing that someone is out to end your life, or even knowing that there's no chance to survive to begin with.

    You keep saying how it's the torturous nature of rape that makes it uncomfortable, but the same goes for murder.
    See:

    "2) I argue that murder can impart less physical suffering to the victim, depending on how it happens. As such, it makes sense that viewers can be more accepting while watching them on screen. [1]"

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  14. #34
    Vampiric Minion Kraco's Avatar
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    Eh, I don't think murder is depicted as an okay thing. Killing is. Like killing crimimals/villains/opponents, killing enemies in war. Of course good guys can die as well, but I'd say viewers are more annoyed by a liked character dying, thus being removed from the story, than imagining death as such and being personally scared of it. Even people who don't support capital punishment in real life can be satisfied with villains dying in a movie. They can separate reality from fiction.

    Torture/rape is felt as disgusting and uncomfortable by too many, so authors/studios would avoid it to make more people watch the movie/series. It's hardly their business to make the audience more used to rape since they are already used to deaths (what a social/professional suicide it would be for a producer/director to announce such a goal).

  15. #35
    Linerunner MFauli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buffalobiian View Post
    See:

    "2) I argue that murder can impart less physical suffering to the victim, depending on how it happens. As such, it makes sense that viewers can be more accepting while watching them on screen. [1]"
    I saw that, but ignored it because it's a cheap semantic tool that leaves all options open for you :] Anything 'can' be anything.

    @kraco:
    Torture/rape is felt as disgusting and uncomfortable by too many
    Yeah, and I'm saying killing should evoke no lesser reactions. When Ainz murdered all those good people last season? It's fucking gross if you think about it - but no huge outrage outside of people finding it boring. :/

  16. #36
    Awesome user with default custom title KrayZ33's Avatar
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    When Ainz killed 70.000 people with a single spell, no one suffered any pain whatsoever.
    On top of that, it's war, they are soldiers.
    The ones who are suffering are the families back home. They didn't show that.

    When Ainz murdered the (good) Workers, not much was shown, pretty much all of it was implied at most.

  17. #37
    Vampiric Minion Kraco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MFauli View Post
    Yeah, and I'm saying killing should evoke no lesser reactions. When Ainz murdered all those good people last season? It's fucking gross if you think about it - but no huge outrage outside of people finding it boring. :/
    Killing does bother people in fiction if they see no reason and justification for it. Typically they label a senseless killer a villain and don't root for them. Ainz is a villain. Like I was quite disappointed he had Arche killed. I thought she was too cute to be killed and it left her two little sisters behind to be sold as sex slaves, most probably. You just have to stomach it to follow such stories. However, if there's a valid reason for the killing, no matter the numbers, then people accept it as a part of the story. That's just how it is. I guess that's how evolution made the human mind work.

  18. #38
    Linerunner MFauli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kraco View Post
    Killing does bother people in fiction if they see no reason and justification for it. Typically they label a senseless killer a villain and don't root for them. Ainz is a villain. Like I was quite disappointed he had Arche killed. I thought she was too cute to be killed and it left her two little sisters behind to be sold as sex slaves, most probably. You just have to stomach it to follow such stories. However, if there's a valid reason for the killing, no matter the numbers, then people accept it as a part of the story. That's just how it is. I guess that's how evolution made the human mind work.
    The girl in GS was raped, because there are no female goblins and that's how they procreate. Pretty good justification imo.

  19. #39
    Vampiric Minion Kraco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MFauli View Post
    The girl in GS was raped, because there are no female goblins and that's how they procreate. Pretty good justification imo.
    Very few would root for the goblins in this story. They are just basic monsters. Besides, as has been said multiple times in this thread, torture/rape and death are not the same. The usual throng in the internets protested against the rape, but they didn't care nearly as much about the dude getting hacked into pieces, for example.

  20. #40
    Family Friendly Mascot Buffalobiian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MFauli View Post
    The girl in GS was raped, because there are no female goblins and that's how they procreate. Pretty good justification imo.
    Procreation isn't a justifiable right lol.

    Just because no girls want consensual sex with me doesn't justify my raping them. -_-...

    But it's acceptable in this setting as being part of the story. We're not asking for its removal.
    Last edited by Buffalobiian; Thu, 10-11-2018 at 02:54 AM.

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