WHY IS LEE ON PAR WITH Kimmimaro??

[Kalean]

Alright, first post, but here's a few rebuttals.

On Kimi being stronger than Kabuto:
A) The manga compared Kimimaro to *SASUKE* in seal strength only. It's obvious however that Kimimaro is a frightening character, if he's already half dead and killing hundreds of Kyuubi Naruto clones.
B) Kimi was not compared to Kabuto. What was mentioned was that Kimimaro was Orochimaru's first choice, and that Sasuke was his fallback. This does lead you to wonder if Kimimaro has something more up his sleeve, since obviously the Sharingan would be much more helpful in Orochimaru's goal of learning all the Jutsu in the world.

On 'stronger than Kabuto' equalling 'stronger than Kakashi'.
A) Kabuto is not as strong a character as Kakashi. Orochimaru stated that he was only 'about' Kakashi level. It's important to note that Orochimaru is not omniscient, and that, like EVERYONE ELSE IN THE MANGA, he underestimates Kakashi. When Kakashi started the Chidori, Orochimaru was surprised. He was also surprised that Kakashi could perform seals, so Orochimaru is hardly the authoritative expert on Kakashi's strength level.
B) Kakashi obviously learned how to open the gates from his observation of the Rock Lee fight. (Unless you can possibly conceive of a reason why he would reveal his sharingan when he realized that Rock Lee could open 5 gates, and an equally believable explanation for Kakashi's opening a gate while rock climbing.)
C) Kabuto being compared to Kakashi is a COMPLIMENT. More than likely, from what we have seen, it is not that Kabuto could necessarily fight evenly with Kakashi, but rather that Kabuto likely possesses the same 'Jounin factor' that Kakashi, Gai, and a few other spiffy people in the series have. (Also known as the 'I'm cooler than you are. Period.' factor) If forced to hazard a guess, I would say that Kabuto's strength lies in a huge amount of flexibility in terms of what he can do, sort of like a really awesome generalist. At least, that's what we've seen evidence of so far.

On Naruto vs. Sasuke (or Kimimaro for that matter):
Naruto and Sasuke (or Kimimaro) is a bad match up. One will always be FAR stronger than the other, because of the COMPLETELY methods in fighting. There will never be an even fight. Even when Naruto and Sasuke fought on the rooftop in Konoha, when they were debatably the closest to each other overall, Naruto would've been the obvious victor with the Rasengan. However, considering that Sasuke didn't use the curse seal at all in that little testosterone induced battle, and that level 2 is just THAT FAR beyond level 1, it is likely that Sasuke (who is incidentally VERY UGLY IN CURSE SEAL 2... that might not go over well with the fan girls..) will soundly defeat Naruto and take himself to train under Orochimaru. After all, it has been established both that a) Sasuke is a prick, and b) Sasuke, Sakura, and Naruto have REMARKABLE parrallels with Orochimaru, Tsunade, and Jiraiya. Therefore, it is likely that Sasuke will train under Orochimaru, if for no under reason than to be able to summon snakes. Kimimaro has a similar bad match up against Naruto. Naruto is about Creativity, Sasuke and Kimi are mainly about skill. Lots of it.

On Rock Lee in general:
A) It is more than likely that this drunken boxing style, however intimidating Gai makes it sound, will merely force Kimimaro into the first curse seal state, if the previous patterns are any indication.
B) According to the Naruto PS2 game (which accurately predicted Shikamaru's new technique, and Neji's Ougi [that hasn't been shown, but was mentioned once.]) Rock Lee *APPARENTLY* will be able to use the gates with greater flexibility than he did against Gaara. Whether this is due to the effects of alcohol or not is unclear, but the ps2 game predicts Rock Lee creating a new move (The Shin Ura Renge, or for you english speakers, the Improved Extreme Lotus) that is the equivalent of 40 of his ultimate move (Again, the extreme lotus) in the span of approximately one second. Obviously, if this comes to pass, Kimimaro is screwed beyond words. However, it's important to note that the Naruto PS2 game has also predicted Naruto accidentally summoning THE FOURTH HOKAGE, so the trustworthiness of that game is a bit on the iffy side.

Summary:
Rock Lee is one of the most popular characters among an UNBELIEVABLY huge percentage of Kishimoto's target audience, and with good reason. He is both the comic relief AND the can of whupass rolled into one. It is more than likely that Rock Lee will defeat Kimimaro by my way of thinking, but if there is anything Kishimoto is good at, it's surprising the readers. Even if I *did* see Rock Lee's entrance coming. Obviously, the drunken fist style in this chapter was an example of such unexpected things (although it's very fitting for the character). At least with Rock Lee in the picture, things will cease to be overly dark and serious and grim as they have been the past volume or so. With Neji, Chouji, and Kiba all half dead, and Orochimaru inhabiting what could debatably be the body of Tsunade's younger brother, it looks like this arc is going to be keeping us on the edge of our seats for some time.

[jonny-mt]

Originally posted by: Kalean
B) According to the Naruto PS2 game (which accurately predicted Shikamaru's new technique, and Neji's Ougi [that hasn't been shown, but was mentioned once.]) Rock Lee *APPARENTLY* will be able to use the gates with greater flexibility than he did against Gaara. Whether this is due to the effects of alcohol or not is unclear, but the ps2 game predicts Rock Lee creating a new move (The Shin Ura Renge, or for you english speakers, the Improved Extreme Lotus) that is the equivalent of 40 of his ultimate move (Again, the extreme lotus) in the span of approximately one second. Obviously, if this comes to pass, Kimimaro is screwed beyond words. However, it's important to note that the Naruto PS2 game has also predicted Naruto accidentally summoning THE FOURTH HOKAGE, so the trustworthiness of that game is a bit on the iffy side.

Um, which PS2 game are you playing? Yeah, it did take some liberties with jutsus (i.e. Sakura's tree genjutsu, which is shown when the three Jounin are up against Itachi), but it was designed around the manga up to a certain point, which the anime has now caught up to. Unless I am extraordinarily mistaken as well as cursed with a horrible memory, Naruto's 3rd-level jutsu is calling up Gamabunta, not the Fourth.

Off-topic PS2 nitpicking aside, what makes you say with any authority that Sasuke is ugly in 2nd-level seal? Yeah, I agree it's probably going to be along the lines of the rest of them, but you make it sound like you know something we don't. Mayhap you could enlighten us, tell us where you got that from?

[Legendary Nin]

Never questions the fuzzy brows.We don't know what Lee gained during his off-time.He was going in for surgery when the genin five left to get Sasuke.They've been gone for what seems a couple of months,so that gives Lee plenty of time to recover and fight.Remember Lee was in the hands of Tsunade,so obviously things were going to go over well.

[lasaire]

I don't think they've been gone for months at all, in fact, I believe they've been gone less than a full day. There's been nothing to show any kind of time passing, and the mission of the four Sound Nin was so time sensitive that it seems to have needed to be accomplished that quickly. I supppose we'll all have to wait and see.

[MightyDustLoop]

Originally posted by: Legendary Nin
Never questions the fuzzy brows.We don't know what Lee gained during his off-time.He was going in for surgery when the genin five left to get Sasuke.They've been gone for what seems a couple of months,so that gives Lee plenty of time to recover and fight.Remember Lee was in the hands of Tsunade,so obviously things were going to go over well.

Months? I don't think its been a day yet. And keep in mind Lee has to do the same traveling they do, so the difference in time isn't THAT much deviating from their fighting time. Even if Lee is faster it's not a big difference.

Plus, Lee's been walking around with a crutch and bad back for a little while. You'd think if anything he has to be weaker, especially comparing him to the 5 who left who've been gathering new techniques.

Oh well, just accept that there's not a lot of reality in fiction and enjoy it for what it is.

[SilentDevil]

for all those ppl who said that kimimaro is chuunin lvl, or not beyond the jounin lvl, they are extremely wrong. the thing is, even the tayuya who is jounin lvl, is afraid of kimimaro. meaning that he obviously he mucccccch better than the 4 gate keepers of sound... and dont forget, the 4 sound guyz totally whupped some leaf JouNiN so.. how can u say kimimaro is below jounin lvl?

the next thing abt rock lee is that.. he drank alcohol; cos he mistake it for his medicine. and when he drinks alcohol he goes into a frenzy, in such a form, even gai is afraid of him.

last thing, regarding the on par thing, noticed everyone SUDDENLY had some new special ultimate moves or something, and manages to beat the jounins? thats because this is a MANGA it doesnt neccessarily have to make 100% sense, of course seeing the main characters, suddenly have nice skillz, and whupping ultra strong people, this would make the manga much nicer to read, thats why the author did that.

[Harageki]

um...I really dont understand the people who keep comparing this to the gaara fight.
Like someone above said, `rock - paper - scissor`. Gaara`s strength is an absolute defence: rock lee`s strength is physical based attacks, go figure. An example is when Sasuke tried to hit Gaara`s sheild with taijutsu and ended up with broken knuckles. He had to resort to NINJUTSU (hence rock/paper/scissor). The Rock Lee versus Kimimaro fight is completely different to the Gaara one.

[moridin]

Originally posted by: SilentDevil
for all those ppl who said that kimimaro is chuunin lvl, or not beyond the jounin lvl, they are extremely wrong. the thing is, even the tayuya who is jounin lvl, is afraid of kimimaro. meaning that he obviously he mucccccch better than the 4 gate keepers of sound... and dont forget, the 4 sound guyz totally whupped some leaf JouNiN so.. how can u say kimimaro is below jounin lvl?

the next thing abt rock lee is that.. he drank alcohol; cos he mistake it for his medicine. and when he drinks alcohol he goes into a frenzy, in such a form, even gai is afraid of him.

last thing, regarding the on par thing, noticed everyone SUDDENLY had some new special ultimate moves or something, and manages to beat the jounins? thats because this is a MANGA it doesnt neccessarily have to make 100% sense, of course seeing the main characters, suddenly have nice skillz, and whupping ultra strong people, this would make the manga much nicer to read, thats why the author did that.

The 4 Sound Nin's needed to use Level 2 Curse Seal to beat 2 Leaf Jounins. Even then, they were worn out. Now, if you believe this makes them on "par" with Jounin's, you need a head check. Kimimaro is strong...for his age. If he is on par with his seal to Sasuke's curse seal, obviously, they are both strong. However, this does not make him on par with a Jounin either, per se. He needs a boost to make it to that level. Think of it like this. Lee is, in my opinion, stronger than most Jounin's when he opens all 5 gates. Does this make him Jounin level? No.

[MightyDustLoop]

I figure Lee will beat on or fight on par with Kimi until he goes into Level 2, who will then beat on Lee, but his body will go out before he kills him. It's a good reason to make him out to be ill storywise.

All we need is for Lee to shove some weed in his mouth and it'll be the stoner vs. the boner.

There's a battle of epic proportions for ya.

[Wren]

Originally posted by: SilentDevil
for all those ppl who said that kimimaro is chuunin lvl, or not beyond the jounin lvl, they are extremely wrong. the thing is, even the tayuya who is jounin lvl, is afraid of kimimaro. meaning that he obviously he mucccccch better than the 4 gate keepers of sound... and dont forget, the 4 sound guyz totally whupped some leaf JouNiN so.. how can u say kimimaro is below jounin lvl?

the next thing abt rock lee is that.. he drank alcohol; cos he mistake it for his medicine. and when he drinks alcohol he goes into a frenzy, in such a form, even gai is afraid of him.

last thing, regarding the on par thing, noticed everyone SUDDENLY had some new special ultimate moves or something, and manages to beat the jounins? thats because this is a MANGA it doesnt neccessarily have to make 100% sense, of course seeing the main characters, suddenly have nice skillz, and whupping ultra strong people, this would make the manga much nicer to read, thats why the author did that.

err, sorry to remind you, but they didtn whip the leaf jounins; like ive said a thousand times THEY WERE DEPLETED JOUNINS, and if you A, are just finishin another mission and are quite drained, and tired going back and come across 4 warriors totin level 2 curse seals fresh for a fight what do you expect to happen? and they still almost got whupped by the 2 jounins anyway; so the sound 4 arent really taht powerful, and kimimaro im sure is strong, but they definatley arent jounin level; if they were i dont think they woulda been concerned bout fightin the ANBU when the sound was assaultin leaf, and callin 2 jounins a *heavy load* after gettin the crap knocked out of them. ajd kimi doenst necessarlily have to be jounin level; bloodline limit just means a certain advantage that in some situations is useful, whil in others its not---yea he is stronger than Mizuki, but put that crap that naruto pulled vs. lets say Kakashi or anyone else, and if you think about it, its basilly an army of Naruto, (bsicaly regular naruto cuz its divided by like a 1000 times iwth the kyuubi chakra), and vs. an enemy that is skilled enough to fight somethin like that that was probably a bad move by naruto. basically he was guaranteeing no hits doing that vs. a skilled enemy, and his usual brute force charge doesnt work against a skilled opponent. he caught other people becuase they were A, caught off guard, and B HE DIDNT DIVIDE HIS STRENGTH a thousand fold weakening each unit basically. sorry for the long rambling tangent, but eh had to be said :-P

[Iznogoud]

No...They said they only left him with no one looking, the 2nd day after the operation!
That means it IS the 2nd day he's ok...
He couldn't train before.

[Kalean]

Originally posted by: jonny-mt

Um, which PS2 game are you playing? Yeah, it did take some liberties with jutsus (i.e. Sakura's tree genjutsu, which is shown when the three Jounin are up against Itachi), but it was designed around the manga up to a certain point, which the anime has now caught up to. Unless I am extraordinarily mistaken as well as cursed with a horrible memory, Naruto's 3rd-level jutsu is calling up Gamabunta, not the Fourth.

Off-topic PS2 nitpicking aside, what makes you say with any authority that Sasuke is ugly in 2nd-level seal? Yeah, I agree it's probably going to be along the lines of the rest of them, but you make it sound like you know something we don't. Mayhap you could enlighten us, tell us where you got that from?

Ok, a) In Naruto's last supers in the ps2 game, he summons gama bunta. The last of those supers (assuming success) shows a figure cloaked in black on top of gama bunta. Now everyone's first response would be Jiraiya, except for some obviously overlooked factors. Gama Bunta said noone had ridden on his head since the 4th hokage when Naruto summoned him, which means Jiraiya never has, so no reason to think he is now. Jiraiya said he could not control Gama Bunta, which is another indicator that he was not the one. Lastly, they already SHOWED Jiraiya on a different toad's head in game, and have no reason to disguise him in a veil of shadow if they have already went to the trouble of giving him a character model. That combined with the fact that Naruto was VERY confused by the person being on top of Gama Bunta seems to indicate it's not Jiraiya. So with all that mentioned, where did I POSSIBLY get the idea that it's the fourth? Simple, in actuality. First, and most importantly, assuming one does not enter the key combination as fast as physically possible, but takes a couple of seconds to do so, there will be a VERY clear picture of a closeup on the fourth hokage's face as the camera starts to zoom towards the figure, in a similar way to the unbelievably clear picture of Itachi in Sasuke's supers. Another hint is when the figure leaps off of Gama Bunta to finish off Gama Bunta's air juggle, there are many many sword slashes in the typical anime style, and it has been established that the fourth carries a sword. I even believe I've seen someone here who has a signature showing the fourth's outfit in completion.

b) On the subject of Sasuke's 2nd level curse seal being ugly, we have already SEEN the second level. He was transforming out of it when he left the coffin. It had a horrendously huge head of long white hair, and the skin was very demonic and decrepit looking just as all the other level 2 seals were. also, his facial shape was distorted somewhat, and basically looked like an ugly troll wearing Sasuke's outfit. It was in chapter 209 I believe, so go catch up.

All that stuff aside, it's also worth pointing out that Naruto has NEVER BEFORE used his clones as just clones. Therefore, there is no way he was going all out against Kimi when he made that many clones, as if he was, there would have been some kind of trick going on. I think Naruto was merely severely pissed off, and not thinking clearly. But then, that's me. It's worth noting that before Kimi's attack almost hit Naruto before Lee saved him, Naruto had dropped out of Kyuubi at the sight of Sasuke. This means that there was no guarantee whether or not Naruto would actually have lost, although it is more than likely he would have. As to those of you mentioning how Naruto beat Shuusaku (Gaara's demon) It's also worth noting that there were several things going for Naruto in that battle. A) Gaara's sand shield (THE ONLY THING that kept him from being beaten to a pulp by rock lee) was already down as he was transforming, leaving him vulnerable to naruto who at the time, for all he was worth, would never have EVER been able to pierce the sand shield, as he did not yet have the rasengan. B) Naruto had time to summon GAMA BUNTA, which Kimi would never have let him do.

Those things being said, without the sand shield, Rock Lee would quite easily have beaten Gaara before he was even done transforming, since it was established that Sasuke *WAS* faster than the demon gaara, and Sasuke was only about as fast as Rock Lee without the weights. Adding to this the fact that Sasuke has NOWHERE NEAR the stamina of Rock Lee (he was breathing heavily after hitting gaara only a couple of times in the final match, whereas Rock Lee ran around the entire arena several times, delivered hundreds of blows, and didn't even break a sweat) you can safely assume that Rock Lee would've taken the opportunity presented by a lack of sand shield, and beaten Gaara senseless. Ignoring that, there is no way that Rock Lee with all 5 gates open would not have COMPLETELY crushed Gaara without the sand shield, as the gourd's sand transformation is the only reason that Gaara wasn't smashed into a thin pulp that would cover the floor of the arena like.. well.. sand.

People are under-estimating just how frightening Rock Lee was, because he lost to raw cheapness. That is just a general flaw of his fighting style. The fact is when it comes to Tai-Jutsu, Kimimaro has not been shown to have much if any more ability than Rock Lee did without the weights. He has been dodging Rock Lee in the last chapter, although barely, which shows that he is definately skilled in close combat, making him a potentially FUN match for Rock Lee. His Gaea seal has been shown to have the same properties as Sasuke's heaven curse seal did before he underwent a transformation to level 2, so it is already known that Kimimaro's curse seal is of the same type as the others, and it is quite obvious that if he is ALREADY almost dead, he definately has already acquired a curse seal level 2, as it was both mentioned that Sasuke had to 'die once' in order to gain the seal, and as it was mentioned by Kidoumaru (spider boy) that noone had brought his curse seal level 2 self as close to death as Neji did since Kimimaro had. Now you can either take this to mean that Kimimaro is so much more skillful than Kidoumaru (who in only a few minutes both determined Neji's weaknesses [ALL OF THEM] and exploited ALL OF THEM to his advantage. He was probably the 'Shikamaru' of the sound's four in terms of intellect, although nobody can compare to Shikamaru straightforward, obviously.) that he defeated Kimimaro's level 2 form with only a level 1 curse seal, or you can take it to mean that Kimimaro has a level 2 as well. Since Kimimaro lacks Neji's ability to emit Chakra from every chakra hole in his body, there is no way a level 1 kimimaro would likely have been able to stand up to Kidoumaru's massive arrow assault, so it's more likely that Kimimaro has a level 2 seal. This is just an assumption, but when his level 2 seal is shown in the manga, people will stop whining at me about this. Until then, feel free to debate it all you wish.

[Mut]

Originally posted by: Kalean
Those things being said, without the sand shield, Rock Lee would quite easily have beaten Gaara before he was even done transforming, since it was established that Sasuke *WAS* faster than the demon gaara, and Sasuke was only about as fast as Rock Lee without the weights. Adding to this the fact that Sasuke has NOWHERE NEAR the stamina of Rock Lee (he was breathing heavily after hitting gaara only a couple of times in the final match, whereas Rock Lee ran around the entire arena several times, delivered hundreds of blows, and didn't even break a sweat) you can safely assume that Rock Lee would've taken the opportunity presented by a lack of sand shield, and beaten Gaara senseless.

but you forget that sasuke fought gaara before using chidori (sasuke's limit is 3 chidori's, but kakashi said that if he uses more than 2, he risks the chance of dying from stamina/chakra loss. but sasuke still managed to do his first one which should tire him out somewhat) and then he not only chased gaara for a long time but also fought temari before facing gaara. ALSO, he had to deal with the curse seal. yes, it gives him more energy and power but it also exhausts him incredibly.

Ignoring that, there is no way that Rock Lee with all 5 gates open would not have COMPLETELY crushed Gaara without the sand shield, as the gourd's sand transformation is the only reason that Gaara wasn't smashed into a thin pulp that would cover the floor of the arena like.. well.. sand.

yeah...i hate it when people say things like this. well, let's turn your argument around. here:
there is no way that Gaara with his sand would not have COMPLETELY crushed Rock Lee without his gates opened, as Lee's gates opening is the only reason that Lee wasn't smashed into a thin pulp that would cover the floor of the arena like... well.. you get the point.

The fact is when it comes to Tai-Jutsu, Kimimaro has not been shown to have much if any more ability than Rock Lee did without the weights. He has been dodging Rock Lee in the last chapter, although barely, which shows that he is definately skilled in close combat, making him a potentially FUN match for Rock Lee.

lee has been in the story from the beginning, kimimaro was just introduced. what are you thinking.

His Gaea seal has been shown to have the same properties as Sasuke's heaven curse seal did before he underwent a transformation to level 2, so it is already known that Kimimaro's curse seal is of the same type as the others, and it is quite obvious that if he is ALREADY almost dead, he definately has already acquired a curse seal level 2, as it was both mentioned that Sasuke had to 'die once' in order to gain the seal, and as it was mentioned by Kidoumaru (spider boy) that noone had brought his curse seal level 2 self as close to death as Neji did since Kimimaro had. Now you can either take this to mean that Kimimaro is so much more skillful than Kidoumaru (who in only a few minutes both determined Neji's weaknesses [ALL OF THEM] and exploited ALL OF THEM to his advantage. He was probably the 'Shikamaru' of the sound's four in terms of intellect, although nobody can compare to Shikamaru straightforward, obviously.) that he defeated Kimimaro's level 2 form with only a level 1 curse seal, or you can take it to mean that Kimimaro has a level 2 as well.

no. <--- this applies to ALL of the points you stated; starting from gaia and heaven seal being same to kimimaro being able to turn to lvl 2.

Since Kimimaro lacks Neji's ability to emit Chakra from every chakra hole in his body, there is no way a level 1 kimimaro would likely have been able to stand up to Kidoumaru's massive arrow assault, so it's more likely that Kimimaro has a level 2 seal.

i have no idea how one is able to come up with this assumption, even if it is an assumption.

This is just an assumption, but when his level 2 seal is shown in the manga, people will stop whining at me about this. Until then, feel free to debate it all you wish.

kimimaro hasn't even activated his seal yet. assuming that he has a lvl 2 is too much. personally, i think his seal is like tsunade's, just one stage.

check mate.

EDIT: sorry for such a long post, but i thought he deserved a well-thought out response for his long reply.

[lasaire]

Tsunade??! Tsunade doesn't have a seal. I think you mean Anko.

Since Kimimaro lacks Neji's ability to emit Chakra from every chakra hole in his body, there is no way a level 1 kimimaro would likely have been able to stand up to Kidoumaru's massive arrow assault, so it's more likely that Kimimaro has a level 2 seal.

I think this was responding to Kidoumaru's remark when he was about to collapse at the end of his fight with Neji:

"Shit, I haven't been this close to death since Kimimaro...." (ch 198, pg 10)

However, this sentence trails off and is not finished, so we really don't know what Kidomaru meant. It could have been almost anything. Perhaps Kimimaro collapsed in the middle of a mission (due to his illness) and the team was nearly killed? Who knows.

I really think that it's too soon to tell anything in the Lee vs. Kimimaro fight. Wait a few weeks and things will become clear, I am sure.

[Mut]

Originally posted by: lasaire
Tsunade??! Tsunade doesn't have a seal. I think you mean Anko.

Since Kimimaro lacks Neji's ability to emit Chakra from every chakra hole in his body, there is no way a level 1 kimimaro would likely have been able to stand up to Kidoumaru's massive arrow assault, so it's more likely that Kimimaro has a level 2 seal.

I think this was responding to Kidoumaru's remark when he was about to collapse at the end of his fight with Neji:

"Shit, I haven't been this close to death since Kimimaro...."

However, this sentence trails off and is not finished, so we really don't know what Kidomaru meant. It could have been almost anything. Perhaps Kimimaro collapsed in the middle of a mission (due to his illness) and the team was nearly killed? Who knows.

I really think that it's too soon to tell anything in the Lee vs. Kimimaro fight. Wait a few weeks and things will become clear, I am sure.

tsunade actually does have a seal. it's not a curse seal, however. she used it when she fought orochimaru and kabuto. she collects chakra on her forehead and she uses it to stimulate the production of various enzymes that accelerate her cell duplication rate for rapid reformation. so, she can reconstruct any damaged parts and organs of her body.

anyway, yeah, i knew kalean meant that, but i was referring to how he is able to come up with the conclusion that kimimaro has a lvl 2 seal just from this sentence: "since kimimaro lacks neji's ability to emit chakra from every chakra hole in his body, there is no way a level 1 kimimaro would likely have been able to stand up to kidoumaru's massive arrow assult."

it just doesn't make sense.

EDIT: sometimes my replies seem somewhat offensive, but this is not the case for this thread.

[Arctyc]

B) Kakashi obviously learned how to open the gates from his observation of the Rock Lee fight. (Unless you can possibly conceive of a reason why he would reveal his sharingan when he realized that Rock Lee could open 5 gates, and an equally believable explanation for Kakashi's opening a gate while rock climbing.)

I think it more plausible that Kakashi knew how to open his Chakra gates long before that fight -- his discussion with Gai reveals that he already knew about the various gates before Lee started opening them. He may simply, like Gai, better know the consequences of opening those gates.

[jonny-mt]

Originally posted by: KaleanOk, a) In Naruto's last supers in the ps2 game, he summons gama bunta. The last of those supers (assuming success) shows a figure cloaked in black on top of gama bunta. Now everyone's first response would be Jiraiya, except for some obviously overlooked factors. Gama Bunta said noone had ridden on his head since the 4th hokage when Naruto summoned him, which means Jiraiya never has, so no reason to think he is now. Jiraiya said he could not control Gama Bunta, which is another indicator that he was not the one. Lastly, they already SHOWED Jiraiya on a different toad's head in game, and have no reason to disguise him in a veil of shadow if they have already went to the trouble of giving him a character model. That combined with the fact that Naruto was VERY confused by the person being on top of Gama Bunta seems to indicate it's not Jiraiya. So with all that mentioned, where did I POSSIBLY get the idea that it's the fourth? Simple, in actuality. First, and most importantly, assuming one does not enter the key combination as fast as physically possible, but takes a couple of seconds to do so, there will be a VERY clear picture of a closeup on the fourth hokage's face as the camera starts to zoom towards the figure, in a similar way to the unbelievably clear picture of Itachi in Sasuke's supers. Another hint is when the figure leaps off of Gama Bunta to finish off Gama Bunta's air juggle, there are many many sword slashes in the typical anime style, and it has been established that the fourth carries a sword. I even believe I've seen someone here who has a signature showing the fourth's outfit in completion.

Ah, gotcha; see where you're coming from, and it makes sense. Just to correct, though, Gamabunta said that no one has ridden on his head since the Fourth, not besides the Fourth, and Jiraiya merely says he has trouble controlling Gamabunta, not that he can't do it. Let's face it, teaming up with your old teammate against Orochimaru is not exactly the best time to be test-driving a giant toad; Jiraiya has clearly done it as well, or he wouldn't be the Frog Hermit. That doesn't affect your point about that being the Fourth, though, so it stands.

b) On the subject of Sasuke's 2nd level curse seal being ugly, we have already SEEN the second level. He was transforming out of it when he left the coffin. It had a horrendously huge head of long white hair, and the skin was very demonic and decrepit looking just as all the other level 2 seals were. also, his facial shape was distorted somewhat, and basically looked like an ugly troll wearing Sasuke's outfit. It was in chapter 209 I believe, so go catch up.

Thank you kindly for the advice, but I am already well caught up. Considering the only picture we have of him in full Level 2 is a back shot on the top half of a single page, it's still too early to be quite that descriptive about him...all you see is white hair and darkened skin, the same kind of shade Lee has when opening the gates. Oh, and an ear. Judging from the others, I think it's a safe assumption that he's gonna be an uggo, but the way you had phrased it (and still phrase it) made it sound like you knew something the rest of us didn't. But if that's enough to convince you 100%, then that's fine by me....