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[avmoghe]

This is going off topic... but..

Orochimaru was the third Hokage's FIRST choice for Hokage. A Hokage is defined to be strongest ninja in the village, I think (correct me if I'm wrong).

He wanted to pick orochimaru over jiraiya, the 4th, tsunade, and the other jounins.

The ONLY reason orochimaru wasn't picked was because of he was killing his own people.

It should be pretty from that alone that Orochimaru was stronger than Jiraiya, Tsunade, the 4th.

If anyone has any difinitive evidence that the 4th was stronger than Orochimaru... lemme know.

Note: "he sealed the demon" doesn't count

[lol i wear shirts]

1. kyubi
2. tom selleck
3. kevin sorbo
4. some azn guy with a hat

hahaha dealt

[MemnochTheCaT]

Originally posted by: avmoghe
This is going off topic... but..

Orochimaru was the third Hokage's FIRST choice for Hokage. A Hokage is defined to be strongest ninja in the village, I think (correct me if I'm wrong).

He wanted to pick orochimaru over jiraiya, the 4th, tsunade, and the other jounins.

The ONLY reason orochimaru wasn't picked was because of he was killing his own people.

It should be pretty from that alone that Orochimaru was stronger than Jiraiya, Tsunade, the 4th.

If anyone has any difinitive evidence that the 4th was stronger than Orochimaru... lemme know.

Note: "he sealed the demon" doesn't count

I don't think combat ability is the only thing necessary to be Hokage, in fact .. it shouldn't even be the top thing required. Think about it, most of the Hokage's responsibilities are related to leadership decisions, not fighting battles .. sort of like how Shikamaru got Chuunin but Naruto did not, even though Naruto is MUCH more powerful in battle. Also look at how the 3rd basically had no taijutsu technique (yes I know he was old, but imagine if he had Rasengan when he was holding Oro ..) .. this leads me to believe that the 3rd wanted Oro to be the next hokage because of his superior intellect and potential leadership abilities.

The 4th seemed to have been a highly combat-oriented warrior, with high-level attacks like Rasengen, Boss Gamabunta summoning (Jiraiya apparently couldn't control Gamabunta hehe!), and even long-range sealing if we are to believe what we saw in episode 1. To tell you the truth, neither Oro or the 3rd were very impressive in combat .. but they are both brilliant characters.

So my feeling is that the 4th was probably much tougher in combat than Oro, but probably wasn't half as cunning .. which could be critical when dealing with the difficult diplomatic and economic issues facing Konoha. Alas, the 3rd had to abandon his hopes for Oro because of his twisted (nonexistent?) morals.

Another thing to consider .. the 3rd VERY NEARLY killed Oro, even though ...

(1)- He was extremely old
(2)- Had to fight in that closed area, probably a big disadvantage not being able to choose terrain
(3)- Had to fight off TWO SUMMONED HOKAGES just to get to Oro ..

This seems more than enough to convince me that if Oro hadn't had the 3rd outnumbered, that the 3rd would have killed Oro deader than Michael Jackson's career. I conclude in all likelyhood that the 3rd was a stronger fighter than Oro ever was, and the 4th was probably easily stronger than BOTH.

In any case, none of the evidence is absolutely conclusive, so we will just have to wait to see if we ever learn more.

[avmoghe]

I thought the Hokage was defined to be the strongest ninja in the village. I'm almost sure that thats a direct quote from the opening chapters of the manga.

I've never doubted that the third hokage in his prime was stronger than Orochimaru. He says it himeslf saying something like ten years ago you could have killed me. Your own post has other indications as well supporting this.

What I AM doubting is whether the 4th hokage, Jiraiya, Tsunade etc are stronger than Orochimaru.

I've yet to see any strong evidence that either of those people are stronger than Orochimaru. I mean, Orochimaru is a 'once in decades genius' with craploads of potential... I doubt either of the others can match up to him.

And then again we have the fact that Orochimaru was the third's first choice for the next hokage.

So, until I see some indications that the 4th was any better.. I'll stick to believing that Orochimaru is the strongest, excepting the 3rd in his prime (and Itachi if Orochimaru's statement is to be believed).

I will agree with you however that the evidence is far from concrete.

[MemnochTheCaT]

I think the Hokage being 'the strongest ninja of the village' is meant to be a measurement of the total package (Intellect, Patience, Honor/Heart, Fighting Skill), not just simple physical combat ability. Similar to how almost any political leader (even ex-military) isn't expected to be the toughest fighter around.

Think of it in terms of the Sand Village .. Gaara/Shukaku is almost unquestionably the most powerful fighting force there, but are in NO way capable of performing the duties of Kazekage, due to being .. oh, what's that word? Oh yeah .. INSANE [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] This ENTIRELY contadicts the notion that the Kages are necessarily the strongest fighter.

Similarly, seeing as how Oro almost got owned by the 3rd, even when he had him outnumbered with TWO other hokages, and the 3rd really wasn't even impressive at all in that battle (no taijutsu really, no massive summoning, nothing that really represented much of a threat other than the sealing) .. Oro looks really weak.

This leads me to believe that Oro's strengths are his intellect and knowledge of jutsu, he just doesn't seem to be much of a physical fighter. The 3rd, 4th, Jiraiya, and probably Itachi are all head and shoulders above Oro in terms of fighting, but Oro is trickier, and uses his wide knowledge and intellect to overcome most of his weaknesses where he can find ways around his weak points.

As I said, there is ample evidence that Hokages are NOT necessarily the most powerful fighter, but rather the best choice for leader of their nation

[Hotsuma]

1. The administrator that bans the starters ass for asking a fucking rhetorical question, and obvious Kyuubi nut-hugging from said thread starter, who made a similar thread like this already.

2. The moderator that deletes or closes this thread, because, it's a fucking rhetorical question, and obvious Kyuubi nut-hugging from the thread starter, who made a similar thread like this already.

3. The forum members who give answers not pertaining to the starting topic, or just giving out purposely wrong opinions, because they know it's a fucking rhetorical question, and obvious Kyuubi nut-hugging from the thread starter, who made a similar thread like this already.

4. The forum members who don't pay attention at all, because they know it's a fucking rhetorical question, and obvious Kyuubi nut-hugging from the thread starter, who made a similar thread like this already.

5. The forum members who actually answers this question seriously, despite knowing that it's a fucking rhetorical question, and obvious Kyuubi nut-hugging from the thread starter, who made a similar thread like this already.

[Lithonite]

Being chosen as Hokage, has more to do with than raw combat strength. As i said before Oro, Jiraiya were almost undoubted stronger in raw combat power than the 4th. but they lacked the required character to be Hokage. for isntance no one could defeat Kyubi- he was just too strong. the 4th realized the only thing that could be done would be to imprison/Seal him unfortunately the only sealing method strong enough to contain the kyubi was one that was going to cost the 4th his life...but knowing this did not stop him from performing it. Oro, would never have gone out for the village, and Jiraiya although he has noble intension probubly would not have thought to use a self sacrificing Seal- from what i am gatheringhe is too much like Naruto to go out and "give up" by using a move like that.


Being chosen for hokage is a lot like being chosen as chunnin. look at Shikimaru home dude is down to take one for the team and the village( yes Naruto too but he would try to fight to the end, where as Shikimaru would just realize the end ) No Shikimaru by far does not have the hghest raw combat strength, he has lowest chakra, and only one offensive jusu thus far- but he is a super genious that is cunning and comepltely attentive of the team and goal. making him an excellent leader.

I imagine the 4th was much the same very compasionante and strong ehough to be called hokage but not necessarily the monster Itachi, or any of the 3 are.

[MemnochTheCaT]

Lithonite, that's pretty much what I was trying to say [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] Although, I'm not sure where to put the 4th at in terms of fighting ability, since we know so *very* little. With skills like rasengan and gamabunta control, I might place him above Oro ..

[avmoghe]

.. I'm having trouble following your logic.

You're looking at what happened in the 3rd vs Orochimaru fight... and using that to put the 4TH hokage over Orochimaru in terms of fighting ability?

I do not understand how Orochimaru's performance vs the third hokage can be used as any sort of an indication of ability as compared with the FOURTH hokage.
---------

Gaara may be the most powerful being in the village.. but there's a very good reason why he isn't hokage... he's insane.. as you said [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] I assumed that you would agree that insanity disqualifies candidacy for Hokage... much like a direct refusal to be a hokage.

So lemme take away the assumptions I made...
a better way to define the word Hokage would be: the strongest non-insane ninja in the village who doesn't refuse to be a Hokage.

Gaara's insanity immediately disqualifies him from being Hokage.

So.. let me get to the point... to provide a counter example, you would have to find a case where an individual is stronger than the village Hokage and is also not insane, and wants to be Hokage... and yet he isn't a the Hokage.

So if you can show me an example of that, I'll admit that the Hokage isn't the strongest person in the village.

Note: insane, for the purposes of this discussion, is defined as someone who kills his own people, or kills without reason

[Naruto_-_Kun]

Originally posted by: avmoghe
I thought the Hokage was defined to be the strongest ninja in the village. I'm almost sure that thats a direct quote from the opening chapters of the manga.

I've never doubted that the third hokage in his prime was stronger than Orochimaru. He says it himeslf saying something like ten years ago you could have killed me. Your own post has other indications as well supporting this.

What I AM doubting is whether the 4th hokage, Jiraiya, Tsunade etc are stronger than Orochimaru.

I've yet to see any strong evidence that either of those people are stronger than Orochimaru. I mean, Orochimaru is a 'once in decades genius' with craploads of potential... I doubt either of the others can match up to him.

And then again we have the fact that Orochimaru was the third's first choice for the next hokage.

So, until I see some indications that the 4th was any better.. I'll stick to believing that Orochimaru is the strongest, excepting the 3rd in his prime (and Itachi if Orochimaru's statement is to be believed).

I will agree with you however that the evidence is far from concrete.

im sorrrri i know this is from long ago, BUT if orochimaru WAS stronger than yondaime, couldnt he have just assassinated him, didnt he need to wait till he was dead b4 he atttacked konohona.....i think the fourth was stronger thats y orochimaru didnt just kill him