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[Lithonite]

Being chosen as Hokage, has more to do with than raw combat strength. As i said before Oro, Jiraiya were almost undoubted stronger in raw combat power than the 4th. but they lacked the required character to be Hokage. for isntance no one could defeat Kyubi- he was just too strong. the 4th realized the only thing that could be done would be to imprison/Seal him unfortunately the only sealing method strong enough to contain the kyubi was one that was going to cost the 4th his life...but knowing this did not stop him from performing it. Oro, would never have gone out for the village, and Jiraiya although he has noble intension probubly would not have thought to use a self sacrificing Seal- from what i am gatheringhe is too much like Naruto to go out and "give up" by using a move like that.


Being chosen for hokage is a lot like being chosen as chunnin. look at Shikimaru home dude is down to take one for the team and the village( yes Naruto too but he would try to fight to the end, where as Shikimaru would just realize the end ) No Shikimaru by far does not have the hghest raw combat strength, he has lowest chakra, and only one offensive jusu thus far- but he is a super genious that is cunning and comepltely attentive of the team and goal. making him an excellent leader.

I imagine the 4th was much the same very compasionante and strong ehough to be called hokage but not necessarily the monster Itachi, or any of the 3 are.

[MemnochTheCaT]

Lithonite, that's pretty much what I was trying to say [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] Although, I'm not sure where to put the 4th at in terms of fighting ability, since we know so *very* little. With skills like rasengan and gamabunta control, I might place him above Oro ..

[avmoghe]

.. I'm having trouble following your logic.

You're looking at what happened in the 3rd vs Orochimaru fight... and using that to put the 4TH hokage over Orochimaru in terms of fighting ability?

I do not understand how Orochimaru's performance vs the third hokage can be used as any sort of an indication of ability as compared with the FOURTH hokage.
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Gaara may be the most powerful being in the village.. but there's a very good reason why he isn't hokage... he's insane.. as you said [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] I assumed that you would agree that insanity disqualifies candidacy for Hokage... much like a direct refusal to be a hokage.

So lemme take away the assumptions I made...
a better way to define the word Hokage would be: the strongest non-insane ninja in the village who doesn't refuse to be a Hokage.

Gaara's insanity immediately disqualifies him from being Hokage.

So.. let me get to the point... to provide a counter example, you would have to find a case where an individual is stronger than the village Hokage and is also not insane, and wants to be Hokage... and yet he isn't a the Hokage.

So if you can show me an example of that, I'll admit that the Hokage isn't the strongest person in the village.

Note: insane, for the purposes of this discussion, is defined as someone who kills his own people, or kills without reason

[MemnochTheCaT]

You also have to take into account that not everyone WANTS to be hokage [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] And yes, I am looking at the 3rd vs. Oro fight and taking it as a significant example of the probablility that 4th > Orochimaru.

Why? The 3rd had to retire once, probably because he was getting too old, and the 4th had reached a level that exceeded the 3rd's waning powers .. and that was 12+ years ago. Oro has already taken younger, stronger bodies while the 3rd just got older and weaker.

So .. if 4th > 3rd at the 3rd's original retirement, and the much OLDER 3rd very nearly OWNED Oro despite being OUTNUMBERED by OTHER HOKAGES .. then it would make sense that the 4th was well above Oro in pure fighting ability, considering he was most likely a better fighter (why else would the 3rd have to retire? .. the 3rd had incredible intelligence and experience, and he wouldn't trust his village to just anyone!). Just connect the obvious..

[avmoghe]

whoa wait...
At the time of the 3rd Hokage's retirement (and after) BOTH Orochimaru and the 4th were stronger than the 3rd...

He would'nt have retired otherwise as you say. Orochimaru was his first choice.. but when he could'nt get him (due to the way the word Hokage was defined in the last post), he picked the 4th.

Orochimaru during the fight was far stronger than the 3rd. The ONLY reason he managed to nearly kill Orochimaru was because he knew the death god technique.... thats it.

I mean.. the technique is used when the opponent is stronger than the user.. its a last resort [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] The 4th hokage managed to seal the demon with that technique.. but does that mean he's anywhere near in power compared to the demon? Obviously not, since we know its quite the opposite.

In the exact same way, 3rd almost killed Orochimaru using that technique, but that doesn't mean that the 3rd is anywhere near Orochimaru in power

I don't see whats the big deal with using Hokages to fight? They're orochimaru's tools... exacltly like that monkey thing, or gamabunta. The tools add to the strength of the one who owns the tools. The Hokages are just a part Orochimaru's overall strength... in the same way that the monkey thing is a part of the 3rd overall strength

[MemnochTheCaT]

I'm not so sure about Oro strengths being his fighting skills .. but rather his intelligence and wide knowledge of jutsu. His performance against the 3rd was horrible, he had to rely on summoned HOKAGES and long-range jutsu to stand a chance. And he was in a young body compared to the 3rd, who was in a VERY old body. No, I think the 3rd had Oro in mind for being a choice for Hokage because Oro is very smart and creative... and would make a great leader, if he wasn't so twisted.

Think of it this way .. Shikamaru would make a 100x better Hokage than Naruto (at this point in the story), because Shika is SMARTER than Naruto. Does this mean that Shika stands much of a chance against Naruto in a fight? NO, of course not, by all accounts Naruto would simply overpower Shika (unless Shika could come up with a miracle).

I think it's probably similar to the 4th vs. Oro .. 4th being more of a pure fighter, tons of chakra and heart, but not necessarily very bright. Oro being more of the calculating intellectual, who memorizes tons of details and knows psychology and manipulation very well.

EDIT : Summoning definitely is a measure of someone's ability, but certainly isn't a measure of someone's STRENGTH .. would anyone say that Naruto is stronger than the 3rd, simply because Gamabunta is a lot more powerful than the Monkey King? No, because that's ridiculous [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img] Summonings have their own powers and personalities, that cannot be measured purely as extensions of those who call upon them. And it is also clear that using human sacrifices to raise DEAD Hokages is a very cheap technique .. if Oro was truly strong he wouldn't have NEEDED to call them to just to beat up a VERY elderly man.

Oro = overrated

[avmoghe]

I don't see how Oro's performance was miserable? [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]

Whats wrong with using summoned Hokages? How is it any different from using any other technique? I don't get why you say its cheaper than regular fire breath or fighting with his snake hands. Summoning Hokage's is a part of his power...its no different from him using any other techinque he has. The hokages are using Oro's power to fight... they don't have any chakra themselves... they are just dead bodies using Oro's own power.

The hokage summoning is completely different type of tool from summoning the monkey king or gamabunta who has his own chakra to fight.

You may be able to differentiate the 3rd from the monkey because the monkey is a separate entity with life and strength of his own. The hokages cannot be differentiated from Oro because they are just lifeless puppets using Oro's own chakra.

As for Naruto and Shikamaru - I don't think they'll pick shikamaru over Naruto for Hokage. Since both are non-insane (dont kill their own people) and assuming both want to be hokage.. they will pick Naruto I think due to his strength [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img] (yes IN SPITE of Shikamaru's intellect). Either way.. its a moot point since we are both speculating on what might happen. Until I see an example of the strongest person (not insane, and wants to be hokage) not being hokage, I'll keep believing that Hokage is the strongest.
Only time will tell which one of us is right [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]