Ranklist

[MemnochTheCaT]

You also have to take into account that not everyone WANTS to be hokage [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] And yes, I am looking at the 3rd vs. Oro fight and taking it as a significant example of the probablility that 4th > Orochimaru.

Why? The 3rd had to retire once, probably because he was getting too old, and the 4th had reached a level that exceeded the 3rd's waning powers .. and that was 12+ years ago. Oro has already taken younger, stronger bodies while the 3rd just got older and weaker.

So .. if 4th > 3rd at the 3rd's original retirement, and the much OLDER 3rd very nearly OWNED Oro despite being OUTNUMBERED by OTHER HOKAGES .. then it would make sense that the 4th was well above Oro in pure fighting ability, considering he was most likely a better fighter (why else would the 3rd have to retire? .. the 3rd had incredible intelligence and experience, and he wouldn't trust his village to just anyone!). Just connect the obvious..

[avmoghe]

whoa wait...
At the time of the 3rd Hokage's retirement (and after) BOTH Orochimaru and the 4th were stronger than the 3rd...

He would'nt have retired otherwise as you say. Orochimaru was his first choice.. but when he could'nt get him (due to the way the word Hokage was defined in the last post), he picked the 4th.

Orochimaru during the fight was far stronger than the 3rd. The ONLY reason he managed to nearly kill Orochimaru was because he knew the death god technique.... thats it.

I mean.. the technique is used when the opponent is stronger than the user.. its a last resort [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] The 4th hokage managed to seal the demon with that technique.. but does that mean he's anywhere near in power compared to the demon? Obviously not, since we know its quite the opposite.

In the exact same way, 3rd almost killed Orochimaru using that technique, but that doesn't mean that the 3rd is anywhere near Orochimaru in power

I don't see whats the big deal with using Hokages to fight? They're orochimaru's tools... exacltly like that monkey thing, or gamabunta. The tools add to the strength of the one who owns the tools. The Hokages are just a part Orochimaru's overall strength... in the same way that the monkey thing is a part of the 3rd overall strength

[MemnochTheCaT]

I'm not so sure about Oro strengths being his fighting skills .. but rather his intelligence and wide knowledge of jutsu. His performance against the 3rd was horrible, he had to rely on summoned HOKAGES and long-range jutsu to stand a chance. And he was in a young body compared to the 3rd, who was in a VERY old body. No, I think the 3rd had Oro in mind for being a choice for Hokage because Oro is very smart and creative... and would make a great leader, if he wasn't so twisted.

Think of it this way .. Shikamaru would make a 100x better Hokage than Naruto (at this point in the story), because Shika is SMARTER than Naruto. Does this mean that Shika stands much of a chance against Naruto in a fight? NO, of course not, by all accounts Naruto would simply overpower Shika (unless Shika could come up with a miracle).

I think it's probably similar to the 4th vs. Oro .. 4th being more of a pure fighter, tons of chakra and heart, but not necessarily very bright. Oro being more of the calculating intellectual, who memorizes tons of details and knows psychology and manipulation very well.

EDIT : Summoning definitely is a measure of someone's ability, but certainly isn't a measure of someone's STRENGTH .. would anyone say that Naruto is stronger than the 3rd, simply because Gamabunta is a lot more powerful than the Monkey King? No, because that's ridiculous [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img] Summonings have their own powers and personalities, that cannot be measured purely as extensions of those who call upon them. And it is also clear that using human sacrifices to raise DEAD Hokages is a very cheap technique .. if Oro was truly strong he wouldn't have NEEDED to call them to just to beat up a VERY elderly man.

Oro = overrated

[avmoghe]

I don't see how Oro's performance was miserable? [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]

Whats wrong with using summoned Hokages? How is it any different from using any other technique? I don't get why you say its cheaper than regular fire breath or fighting with his snake hands. Summoning Hokage's is a part of his power...its no different from him using any other techinque he has. The hokages are using Oro's power to fight... they don't have any chakra themselves... they are just dead bodies using Oro's own power.

The hokage summoning is completely different type of tool from summoning the monkey king or gamabunta who has his own chakra to fight.

You may be able to differentiate the 3rd from the monkey because the monkey is a separate entity with life and strength of his own. The hokages cannot be differentiated from Oro because they are just lifeless puppets using Oro's own chakra.

As for Naruto and Shikamaru - I don't think they'll pick shikamaru over Naruto for Hokage. Since both are non-insane (dont kill their own people) and assuming both want to be hokage.. they will pick Naruto I think due to his strength [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img] (yes IN SPITE of Shikamaru's intellect). Either way.. its a moot point since we are both speculating on what might happen. Until I see an example of the strongest person (not insane, and wants to be hokage) not being hokage, I'll keep believing that Hokage is the strongest.
Only time will tell which one of us is right [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

[Hotsuma]

Okay. You must be on crack or something avmoghe. Anybody with common sense (and have read the story, which you obviously have not ) could see what characteristics are required to become Hokage.

When you're Hokage, you REPRESENT the village, or country itself. Why the fuck would the council hire some insane kid to be the flag of their own town? Unless of course, it's a dictatorship, where that said person just rules via take over, but that's unlikely.

Strength VS Intellect, common sense, leadership qualities. See Chuunin exam.

And where did you get the fact that the 2 dead Hokages were using Oro's own chakra? In either case, it's a 3 on 1 fight. 2 of which are as strong, if not stronger than the 3rds old body.

[Death BOO Z]

Originally posted by: avmoghe

Whats wrong with using summoned Hokages? How is it any different from using any other technique? I don't get why you say its cheaper than regular fire breath or fighting with his snake hands. Summoning Hokage's is a part of his power...its no different from him using any other techinque he has. The hokages are using Oro's power to fight... they don't have any chakra themselves... they are just dead bodies using Oro's own power.

The hokage summoning is completely different type of tool from summoning the monkey king or gamabunta who has his own chakra to fight.

You may be able to differentiate the 3rd from the monkey because the monkey is a separate entity with life and strength of his own. The hokages cannot be differentiated from Oro because they are just lifeless puppets using Oro's own chakra.

I guess you missed out the point where the 3rd refears to the fact they'll continue fighting even if Orochimaru is dead...

it kinda prooves out that they have chackra of thier own, doesn't it?

[avmoghe]

death boo: eh... how does that show that they are not using orochiamru's chakra?

Its not like they have to be getting it from him constantly. He can just give a certain amount to them when he raises them at the begining. As long as that amount doesn't run out, Orochimaru can die. I mean.. they are just dead bodies. Dead bodies don't have chakra. The only source for them to get the chakra from is orochimaru... its not like chakra can just appear out of nowhere in non-living objects right? [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

hotsumma: no. I'm not on crack. No one is picking an insane kid to be their flag. I'm saying that if the council had NO CHOICE but to let Naruto or Shikamaru become Hokage.. they will pick Naruto because of his strength. Its not like Naruto has to handle the administration individually.. he has jounins to help him out and advise him. needless to say, that situation wont happen for a good long while... it will happen when both Naruto and Shikamaru have matured some more. The point I'm trying to make is they will pick a stronger person with above-average intelligence over a significantly weaker person with genius level intelligence.

Remember, we are talking about Orochimaru and the 4th here.. its a pretty safe assumption that both had atleast average intelligence.. they were BOTH known as genius ninja's. the naruto -shika thing is just an analogy... the real question is orochimaru vs. the 4th for Hokage. Obviously both DID have the necessary qualities to become Hokage (as far as intelligence is concerned)... I'm trying to say that the fact that when BOTH had sufficient intelligence, and given the fact that Oro was the 3rd's first choice... that should be sufficient to show that Oro was picked because of his strength.

both oro and the 4th had the sufficient mental abilities to become hokage (oro's intelligence is obvious.. and the 4th intelligence can be shown through the fact that he council DID pick him to be Hokage).... yet the 3rd picked Oro over the 4th. I'm saying that must have been because he was stronger than the 4th.

[MemnochTheCaT]

If you think strength is the only requirement for Hokage, then you're just insane. Oro doesn't seem to be all that strong, having such a difficult time even after he has stolen a new body to fight an extremely elderly man with. Having the new body wasn't enough, he had to summon dead hokages to do his fighting for him (which, having human sacrifices for being the conduit, probably supply the chakra, NOT Oro, all he did was stab them with activating Kunai!). A very cheap, and highly forbidden technique, for obvious reasons.

As for Naruto being hokage .. maybe someday far far off, I actually believe he will achieve his goal, but he has tons of growing to do. Shikamaru is actually already ready for the task intellectually, and I stand by that at THIS POINT in the story, he is a better choice. It is quite obvious that the Hokage's main duty is ANYthing but fighting. How many times did we see the 3rd engage in combat? ONCE! The Kage's main duty is diplomacy and administration of the government .. can you see Naruto spending more than 5 minutes on that without going berserk and incinerating the scroll he is supposed to read and sign? The point I am trying to make (based on Oro's GLARING weaknesses in combat), is that Oro was more INTELLECTUALLY fit for Hokage, and would serve Konoha better by doing the work that is required in a more intuitive and effective manner than someone with less intelligence (ie- the 4th, someone who Naruto is constantly compared to). Based on what little we've heard about the 4th, we know that he was vastly powerful, was very passionate about his village and people, and had some very high-level jutsu. But we don't hear anything particular about him being clever or anything beyond somewhat creative. There is obviously MUCH more to being hokage than just being strong. But the POSITION automatically MAKES ONE the strongest (measured by authority and responsibility) of the village.

[Hotsuma]

Originally posted by: avmoghe
death boo: eh... how does that show that they are not using orochiamru's chakra?

Its not like they have to be getting it from him constantly. He can just give a certain amount to them when he raises them at the begining. As long as that amount doesn't run out, Orochimaru can die. I mean.. they are just dead bodies. Dead bodies don't have chakra. The only source for them to get the chakra from is orochimaru... its not like chakra can just appear out of nowhere in non-living objects right? [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

hotsumma: no. I'm not on crack. No one is picking an insane kid to be their flag. I'm saying that if the council had NO CHOICE but to let Naruto or Shikamaru become Hokage.. they will pick Naruto because of his strength. Its not like Naruto has to handle the administration individually.. he has jounins to help him out and advise him. needless to say, that situation wont happen for a good long while... it will happen when both Naruto and Shikamaru have matured some more. The point I'm trying to make is they will pick a stronger person with above-average intelligence over a significantly weaker person with genius level intelligence.

Remember, we are talking about Orochimaru and the 4th here.. its a pretty safe assumption that both had atleast average intelligence.. they were BOTH known as genius ninja's. the naruto -shika thing is just an analogy... the real question is orochimaru vs. the 4th for Hokage. Obviously both DID have the necessary qualities to become Hokage (as far as intelligence is concerned)... I'm trying to say that the fact that when BOTH had sufficient intelligence, and given the fact that Oro was the 3rd's first choice... that should be sufficient to show that Oro was picked because of his strength.

both oro and the 4th had the sufficient mental abilities to become hokage (oro's intelligence is obvious.. and the 4th intelligence can be shown through the fact that he council DID pick him to be Hokage).... yet the 3rd picked Oro over the 4th. I'm saying that must have been because he was stronger than the 4th.

Sorry to pop your bubble, but Orochimaru was a fucking pussy. Why? He needed 2 summoned Hokages to fight out an old man. An OLD MAN! Now, what was he doing, when the 3 were duking it out? He was sitting back, talking mad shit. Oh, and I doubt Oro was really controlling the 2 Hokage's chakra levels. Sacrifices were made after all, for the summoning. They were listening to him, because of a contract. Against their wishes.

And, hypothetically speaking....


Where the FUCK do you get that Naruto is above average in intelligence? It's been established via missions, tests and through other characters that Naruto completely lacks everything required to be a intelligent, resourceful ninja. He relies on pure strength to get him through. Also, saying that he relies on lower level Jounin to help him out? Ok. Weak. There are more than one jounins in the village. Has it ever occured to you there might be, oh I dunno, bias on each jounins parts? Once again, Hokage is the highest rank in any village. It's illogical to listen to lower ranks. Would a Jounin listen to a Chuunin? Chuunin, a genin? Genin, a student? No.

And I reiterate. They didn't choose Chuunins based on pure strength. Why else did only Shikamaru become one? He is smart, resourceful, cunning, and calm. Given Naruto's current character (and his defining one), how can anybody with common sense elect him as Hokage?


Getting to the 4th VS Oro in Hokage election. Strength is important in becoming Hokage. But important as heart? Compassion? No. Why do you think Jiraiya and Tsunade always believe Naruto to be the next (well future) Hokage? His strength? No. They never once mention his skill in battle as a requirement for becoming Hokage. Besides that, the 4th didn't hide behind his cronies when fighting his own battle, hah. Oh, and I do believe the 4th was stronger than Orochimaru. Back in the Chuunin days, when Anko was telling 3rd about Hokage, she wished "If only the 4th were here.." this insinuates that he's as strong, if not STRONGER than the Oro in his current state (which is improved since the Hokage election years ago, because of his obsessions.)

So yeah, the 4th was probably stronger. Oro was basically like a teacher's pet to the third. If you had a favorite student, wouldn't you want him to be respected and reverered throughout the village too?