The Gap Between Genin And Jounin

[Y]

Sorry this is late. I've had a terrible work schedule and it isn't over yet. Here's the responses to page 1's top points.

no way theres FAR too much heresay in your post for it to be anywhere near factual, although i can see where your coming from i have to say your wrong.

I don't think you know what heresay means.

ok point one, sasuke hit oro and surprised him. gai hit kisame but i dont really think gai could beat him.

First off, since when is "I think differently than you" a refutation of anything? Good job for thinking differently, but unlike me you didn't actually provide evidence. Second off, nowhere in the OP did I pose the idea that Sasuke could whoop a Sannin. The Sannin are very, very rare exceptions in power compared to Konoha's typical Jounin.

Yes, kids. The same is true for the Genin. These BOTH prove my point: power is not tied to rank. There can be INSANELY strong Genin who are still better fit for the Genin position than for promotion: like Naruto and Sasuke. There can be INSANELY strong Jounin who could kill hundreds of other Jounin at once, and yet they are not a separate class because Jounin is not a designation based on power.

Here is the essential argument, again: I am not saying that the elite rookie Genins are "as strong as Jounin". I am saying that the phrase "as strong as a Jounin" means nothing: Jounin is not a class of power.

econd, half or even 75% of 1 million billion zillion is a lot less.

This works rather well when you invent a DBZ "power level" for Kakashi-sensei. Good thing there isn't one in the series.

third point haku is NOT a jounin. i cant stress this enough. he was beaten by sasuke, a gennin.

Uh, sure, buddy. What series did you watch?

For some reason (IMO) it seems to me that you're calling certain techniques Jounin level simply because they're performed a Jounin.

I consider the Chidori a high-level Jutsu (referring to it as Jounin level was erroneous). I support this by saying that an elite ninja like Kakashi, who has tons of experience and techniques, can only use that technique four times in 24 hours before becoming exhausted. Similarly, Naruto's Gamabunta summon is something that only the Fourth Hokage has done previously.

I agree with Shadow-Wolf, I think you are just saying that some techniques are Jounin level are only for Jounins but Genins can perform it as well. Didn't you ever think that some of the Jounin teachers would teach their Genins their techniques?

Thing is, the Jounins already observed that typical Genins shouldn't be able to perform even basic jutsus like Sasuke's fireball. This, again, serves to illustrate that there isn't really a set power that each rank has.

And you also say that Naruto IS a Jounin just because he has the Kyubi inside him.

No, I don't.

Jounnins have lots more experience and can be more trusted to handle more difficult missions. Thus, they should be theoretically better at fighting and so what not.

No. I would discuss the reason why this isn't so, but, again... spoiler territory. Remember that the promotion isn't based on fighting ability, and I'll leave it at that.

Stuff that Stoopider says about the Genin being elite

No kidding, buddy, that's kinda my point. The top Genins we see aren't that far from the Jounins in combat ability. However, unlike what you and others have said/implied, that does not mean they should be promoted.

That's a pretty illogical argument. It's full of guesses on your part that aren't justified, examples where a
gennin did little more than catch a jounin off guard for an instant

There are zero examples in my post that are dependant on surprise attacks to argue that a top Genin could defeat a Jounin. There is ONE example of Sasuke surprising Orochimaru, and it was done to again say that the power gaps here can be bridged. Friggin' OROCHIMARU is a pretty special case to survive Sasuke's surprise attack. Without the copout of Kawarimi I feel that pretty much anyone besides a Sannin who had explosives detonate on their body would be dead. Orochimaru had that outer flesh shell, and it got melted and warped: you can imagine what would happen to an actual person's flesh.

Sasuke may be able to do the Chidori almost as many times as Kakashi, but what makes you think that his
is anywhere near as strong as Kakashi's?

Let's see. Sasuke's cut a friggin' transforming Gaara in half. Kakashi killed an already beaten and weakened Haku. Which has the better showing?

Oh, wait. We can just use the automatic assumption that a Jounin's techniques are a zillion times better than Sasuke's, just because it's a Jounin. [img]i/expressions/rolleye.gif[/img]

garra and naruto both have demons that empower them, but for naruto to get that power he needs to be in a dire situation.

Not really. Naruto has an ENORMOUS damage soak and also, thanks to the training with Jiraiya, can call upon the Kyuubi pretty much whenever he wants to kick someone's ass.

[Goingin]

Originally posted by: Y The Alien

Not really. Naruto has an ENORMOUS damage soak and also, thanks to the training with Jiraiya, can call upon the Kyuubi pretty much whenever he wants to kick someone's ass.

Too bad the creator thinks its funny that until now we only seen Naruto use it when he's all out of options and cannot do anything else than call it up (fight against Neji) or when he's in distress (summoning Gamabunta when he's falling down that ..."thing" [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img], or in the fight against gaara when he's in a _tight situation_ like desert coffin [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img])


About the "i say he's too strong for me so i can't beat him" thing in naruto, why do most people go comparing ninja's on that?
There's a difference between saying u can do something and actually doing it with success.

The whole ninja comparison based on the things characters say in Naruto is just rubbish, u cannot do such a thing.
Naruto can say (out loud [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]) that he can beat Kakashi (by instance) but he can't.

U need actual fighting scenes to compare the strenghts of the characters, and even then u can be off, cause they all specialized in different jutsu's and moves, so an overall weakers ninja could defeat a stronger one if he does moves the stronger one cannot counter or if he's smarter

The whole Naruto series is just too much full of suprises, and with some characters getting more and more stronger, or some revealing more special moves its almost impossible to compare em

[gokudagreat]

You guys keep comparing naruto and gaara and sasuke to people like Itachi and Kakashi and Jiraiya etcetera, those people are just the exceptional jounins, the ones who were like as strong as naruto and sasuke etcetera when they were kids, the Majority of jounins are just slightly above average ninjas

For instance, in jump festa 2004, the villains were a bunch of rogue jounins, and naruto and sasuke kicked their asses... not all jounins are so great

[Mut]

Originally posted by: gokudagreat
You guys keep comparing naruto and gaara and sasuke to people like Itachi and Kakashi and Jiraiya etcetera, those people are just the exceptional jounins, the ones who were like as strong as naruto and sasuke etcetera when they were kids, the Majority of jounins are just slightly above average ninjas

For instance, in jump festa 2004, the villains were a bunch of rogue jounins, and naruto and sasuke kicked their asses... not all jounins are so great

that villages jounin standards were obviously below average seeing how they had like 30 people living in that whole village.

[Jessper]

Thing is, the Jounins already observed that typical Genins shouldn't be able to perform even basic jutsus like Sasuke's fireball. This, again, serves to illustrate that there isn't really a set power that each rank has.

I think this only shows that Sasuke has an extraordinary amount of chakara(though I wouldn't call that fireball technique a basic one).

No kidding, buddy, that's kinda my point. The top Genins we see aren't that far from the Jounins in combat ability. However, unlike what you and others have said/implied, that does not mean they should be promoted.

However, if it were not for the Hokage's death some of these Genin's might be chuunin ATM so thats what they should be viewed as?

Let's see. Sasuke's cut a friggin' transforming Gaara in half.

I'll have to watch the episodes again but I don't remember it however I remember Naruto finishing Gaara and usualy getting cut in half means death but again, I'll have to watch the episodes again.

Kakashi killed an already beaten and weakened Haku. Which has the better showing?

How does this in anyway compare Sasuke and Kakshi's chakara / strength of the technique? You can't use the automatic assumption that just because he killed Haku(which I got the feeling that he didn't want to and was trying to stop) and not some demon that his is a zillion times weaker than Sasuke's (that was a parody on your text if you didn't catch it...)

Similarly, Naruto's Gamabunta summon is something that only the Fourth Hokage has done previously.

Jiraiya talks about how he has a hard time controling Gamabunta when Naruto him summons the first time so I would only assume that he has done so before as well.

[Kurapica]

This thread blows, some people try to make assumptions of their own. I'd say let's have Kishimoto Masashi decide who is off what level and who can beat who, instead of just picturing stuff.

[Stoopider]

yes it does.

I doubt if Kishimoto even have thought through about the whole gennin Chunnin or Jounnin concept.

[Hinata-chan]

not gonna bother reading this so i'll add my bit


FLAME FLAME FLAME FLAME FLAME FLAME YOU ARE WRONG I R RIGHT

[Y]

I think this only shows that Sasuke has an extraordinary amount of chakara(though I wouldn't call that fireball technique a basic one).

Yes. It does show that Sasuke has more chakra than typical Genins, before he and the group even begin training.

Also, besides using ninjutsu to light candles or something, a fireball is pretty much the most basic fire attack possible, right? That's what I mean.

However, if it were not for the Hokage's death some of these Genin's might be chuunin ATM so thats what they should be viewed as?

I can't respond to this without spoling the results of the Chuunin Exam.

I'll have to watch the episodes again but I don't remember it however I remember Naruto finishing Gaara and usualy getting cut in half means death but again, I'll have to watch the episodes again.

He cuts Gaara's giant Shukaku arm in half and it dissolves, after he activates the Heaven Seal. He didn't kill him. He just wounded a transforming Gaara by slicing his transforming arm in half and dissolving it.

How does this in anyway compare Sasuke and Kakshi's chakara / strength of the technique?

How else? How would you compare the effectiveness and power of the technique if you do not look at what effect it has on its targets? Sure, Sasuke had a way more powerful target. But Sasuke doing more damage with the technique than Kakashi makes it VERY unlikely that Kakashi's Chidori is "vastly superior". I personally believe that the technique is always the same power, but when the only example of its power leaves Sasuke looking superior, the logical assumption is not "Kakashi's is stronger".

his is a zillion times weaker than Sasuke's (that was a parody on your text if you didn't catch it...)

And my post was a parody of the one I was responding to.

Did you catch that? [img]i/expressions/rolleye.gif[/img]

Jiraiya talks about how he has a hard time controling Gamabunta when Naruto him summons the first time so I would only assume that he has done so before as well.

You are right, I was totally wrong about the frog summons and misremembered both Gamabunta's line ("No one's ridden on my back since the Fourth") and a later manga arc.

This thread blows

And what a useful contribution your posts make to it, son. [img]i/expressions/rolleye.gif[/img]

Interesting that you pick a point to respond to, claim that there are zero examples of it, then go on to site
one.

To cite an example of Sasuke tricking a Sannin to show his ingenuity in battle - not that he'd whoop the guy's ass. Sasuke's power and ingenuity in battle surprised Oro and threw him off balance - and that is all. It isn't as if my argument hinges on Sasuke being able to whip the Sannin's asses blindfolded. That was just a high showing for him, not "omg rofls he pwnd oro".

Also, Oro was completely unharmed by the explosion. All it did was make him stumble forward.

Which led into the fire dragon jutsu. Which melted his flesh off. And, really dude, do you think Kakashi or Kurenai or Asuma can have explosives bounce off his ass harmlessly? Really?

Sasuke used the Chidori twice on Gaara. He survived both
times.

No shit. He cut the Shukaku arm (which is of course more durable than Gaara's normal body - unless you think Gaara can take thousands of Kage Bunshin'ed Kyuubi Naruto punches and survive) in half and it dissolved. This feat absolutely blows away Kakashi's killing of a beaten down Haku.

the thing about orochimaru vs sasuke. i hope all you guys know that orochimaru was just testing how talented sasuke was and was just messing around with him. in a real fight, sasuke would last maybe 4 seconds before orochimaru paralyzes his ass and rips his head off.

You got me, buddy. Sasuke in the early parts of the series cannot beat Orochimaru. [img]i/expressions/rolleye.gif[/img]

Congratulations, that proves nothing. It isn't as though any of the Leaf Jounin can replicate that feat.

[Uchiha Barles]

Although we haven't really seen any kind of proof of it yet, it is rumored that Kakashi cut through lightning (whatever that means) with his chidori. I think that, if it's true, that blows anything Sasuke has shown with the chidori to date.

[Mut]

what are you trying to say y the alien? are you trying to say that kakashi would lose to sasuke if they went head to head with their chidori?

[ShinobiNeko]

If Sasuke and Kakashi went head on with Chidori I"m sure Kakashi would come out the winner -.-

[miaka]

jeez guys... sasuke, naruto and etc are in chuunin level now... and jounins are stronger than them.. i mean there are ranks for a reason.. and kakashi knows 1000 jutsus.. of course sasuke can't beat kakashi.. kakashi wouldn't be his teacher if sasuke could

[SofaKing]

Which led into the fire dragon jutsu. Which melted his flesh off. And, really dude, do you think Kakashi or Kurenai or Asuma can have explosives bounce off his ass harmlessly? Really?

#1 That's a nice dodge there.
#2 It did not melt his flesh off, it melted someone else's flesh off. Oro was wearing someone else's face as a
mask at the time. Oro himself was unharmed.
#3 I see no reason why Kakashi would not survive such a blast. Funny thing about the jounin in Naruto- they
are stronger, faster, and tougher than any real human.

No shit. He cut the Shukaku arm (which is of course more durable than Gaara's normal body - unless you think Gaara can take thousands of Kage Bunshin'ed Kyuubi Naruto punches and survive) in half and it dissolved. This feat absolutely blows away Kakashi's killing of a beaten down Haku.

#1 Don't say 'No shit' now when you said that Gaara was cut in half before.

#2 No, it doesn't. You're STILL missing the fact that Sasuke's Chidori failed to defeat Gaara. The Chidori is a
finishing move, which judging from the Kakashi vs. Zabuza fight is supposed to be able to kill an opponent,
not just hurt him a little. Sasuke's Chidori didn't do too good a fucking job of that, now did it? And all you can
offer on Kakashi's Chidori is that it only killed the person that it struck.

Unless you can provide actual evidence to show that Sasuke's Chidori is as good as Kakashi's, then there
remains a gaping hole in your logic.

[SofaKing]

There are zero examples in my post that are dependant on surprise attacks to argue that a top Genin could defeat a Jounin. There is ONE example of Sasuke surprising Orochimaru, and it was done to again say that the power gaps here can be bridged. Friggin' OROCHIMARU is a pretty special case to survive Sasuke's surprise attack. Without the copout of Kawarimi I feel that pretty much anyone besides a Sannin who had explosives detonate on their body would be dead. Orochimaru had that outer flesh shell, and it got melted and warped: you can imagine what would happen to an actual person's flesh.

Interesting that you pick a point to respond to, claim that there are zero examples of it, then go on to site
one. Also, Oro was completely unharmed by the explosion. All it did was make him stumble forward.

You need to argue with actual evidence, not "I feel"'s.

Let's see. Sasuke's cut a friggin' transforming Gaara in half. Kakashi killed an already beaten and weakened Haku. Which has the better showing?

Once again, you need to re-watch the series. Sasuke used the Chidori twice on Gaara. He survived both
times.

[Mut]

the thing about orochimaru vs sasuke. i hope all you guys know that orochimaru was just testing how talented sasuke was and was just messing around with him. in a real fight, sasuke would last maybe 4 seconds before orochimaru paralyzes his ass and rips his head off.

[Jessper]

Also, besides using ninjutsu to light candles or something, a fireball is pretty much the most basic fire attack possible, right? That's what I mean.

Well you said basic, not basic fire tech and replication is pretty basic imo where his fireball would be probably a level above that.

He cuts Gaara's giant Shukaku arm in half and it dissolves, after he activates the Heaven Seal. He didn't kill him. He just wounded a transforming Gaara by slicing his transforming arm in half and dissolving it.

cutting him in half is different from cutting his arm in half. also, Activates the Heaven Seal? You meanthe cursed seal? I'm lost here.

How else? How would you compare the effectiveness and power of the technique if you do not look at what effect it has on its targets? Sure, Sasuke had a way more powerful target. But Sasuke doing more damage with the technique than Kakashi makes it VERY unlikely that Kakashi's Chidori is "vastly superior". I personally believe that the technique is always the same power, but when the only example of its power leaves Sasuke looking superior, the logical assumption is not "Kakashi's is stronger".

The point of my question was it is like comparing the strength of two guns with one shooting a bird and the other shooting a bear and saying this proves that the one that killed the bird can't be vastly stronger than the other one, you don't know. Also like I said I think Kakshi was trying to stop (but we probably won't ever know) so if he was that might be why his Chidori did less damage.

I know that you can't reveal the results of the exam but as far as we know(the anime only watchers) they could be Chuunin so this isn't really the place to bring up this discussion as then half of your examples would be chuunin vs jounin not genin.

Which led into the fire dragon jutsu. Which melted his flesh off. And, really dude, do you think Kakashi or Kurenai or Asuma can have explosives bounce off his ass harmlessly? Really?

Ya his "flesh" was a fake face that burned off and he was unharmed. And Kakshi was fine when Sasuke used his fireball on him too.

[Goingin]

Sasuke could be stronger and would be having more chakra to use if he didn't have that Cursed seal, so it's kinda hard to tell how strong he really is..

Btw, its a pretty nice trick done by Oro, this way Sasuke has to come to him if he seeks more power than the seal permits