Originally posted by: Y The Alien
actually.....the "fact that i pointed out" if you would pay attention, was a direct reference to the manga
One that, unfortunately, does not support your opinion. Raidou says "We were low on chakra, and that's why we Jounin are in this state now." What this does *not* mean is that at full power the two Jounin would have ass-raped the Sound Four. That is just, as usual, your own speculation. Hell, Raidou's *very next sentence* is that a TEAM of Jounin needs to be sent to protect the Genin. Wow Raidou, a team? Why don't you just ask AssertnFailure, just two of you could whip the Sound Four's ass! Except I think Raidou knows a bit better than you do, and he recommends a team of Jounin in ADDITION to the elite Genin. So Raidou (just like you) underestimated the Genin and overestimated the Sound Four.

now unless if you're gonna assume the manga isnt fact because its kishimoto's opinion.....then you're an idiot
It doesn't say what you want it to say. Nowhere in it does it say that people are promoted to Jounin because they are so ungodly powerful that they'd ass-rape any lower rank you threw at them.

Becuase what you say goes against most of the stuff we've seen
I really think you're being willfully ignorant here. You know Kabuto's speech in the Tsunade arc, where he's all "This is a Jounin and above battle, Genin are worthless and weak here!" That's your position.

What happened to Kabuto after he gave that speech? He got torn up by the Rasengan and only lived because of his regeneration. Even then he was incapacitated. Yes, Naruto got ownzed too... but if you try to use friggin' Kabuto on a soldier pill as an example of the average Jounin, you're on drugs. Everyone who thinks of Jounin uses either Kakashi, Kabuto, or (if they're truly retarded) one of the Sannin as an example. These Jounin are *far* above average for their class, and it's been stated so several times.

most of the things everyone believes
Aww, going against the grain is an outrage? Too bad that's a logical fallacy - the number of people who believe something has absolutely no inherent connection with its truth.

Apparently you're bad at debates, but let me elaborate a little.

When you have a strong opinion of something that nobody else believes in....it isnt everyone else's job to try to prove you wrong....its YOUR job to convince us that you're right. And frankly you're not doing a very good job
Apparently I'm bad at debates? Who just displayed their lack of understanding in regards to the burden of proof? Yep... you. FYI, the burden of proof in any debate is on anyone making a positive assertion, and both sides here do so. I've laid out a lot of my arguments in the last thread I made on this, and laid out several here. FYI also, the number of people who believe something does *not* change the burden of proof. Oh, wait, I can't know that! I'm *bad* at debates.

People pretty much write off the elite Genin because they don't realize that they're being placed in confrontations that make for a good fight - not ones where they just fuck the enemy's brains out straight out of the box. I mean, take Gaara. If he had been fighting ANYONE except Kimimaro and used the technique where he shoves them 200 meters underground and crushes them... they'd be dead. Same deal for the huge sand wave. I don't think even you would say otherwise. Take Neji, as well. When he fought Naruto he was just dicking around and never used the Gentle Fist style to mess up his internal organs. When he fought Hinata and DIDN'T dick around, he friggin' destroyed her heart. And Kidoumaru got lucky because he JUST SO HAPPENED to be able to block the Jyuuken moves with his web armor. Let's say Neji had been fighting, oh, say, any other Sound nin. If he was truly ready to kill them, he could hit them ONCE and explode their heart. Hell, take Sasuke. How much of a fucking elder demon is it going to take to defeat him now that his Sharingan is fully unlocked? And yet people still talk like he's this pussy that Zabuza would own, despite getting so much stronger it isn't even funny.
I like how most of your responses are based around the assumption that your first point was correct. That makes things a little easier for me [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]. For one thing......yes, it does mean that they wouldve raped the sound 4. Ninjas can tell how strong an opponent is by fighting them....and if they say "we wouldnt be in the state we're in now", then that means that they wouldve won. You have to realize, that this is a story created by somebody, not real life. Therefore when a detail like that is mentioned, then it SHOULD be obvious that the author intended to clarify something that people might not understand. Unfortunately this only works 99% of the time it seems. And yes a "team" of jounins. Why do you suppose that is? because jounins always travel in teams! Only a truly arrogant (or moronic) person would decide to take the bare minimum out to fight a battle if he had a safer alternative. This makes sense to me, but apparently you know more about how ninjas behave.

As for going against the grain being an outrage? no, i merely said that doing so puts you in the position of needing to prove your point moreso than the rest of us. When columbus challenged the idea of the world being round, was it the scientists' duty to prove him otherwise? no of course not. It would be idiotic to have to go through an endless debate among every individual person that might show up and say they disagree. And since this came up in one of my classes recently.....what about the nature vs nurture (gender roles are determined genetically vs dependent on the environment you're rased in) debate? Everyone believed it was nature for men to be dominant over women, but there was one woman who didnt believe in that. Did she just sit there waiting to be proven wrong? no....she went to tribes off in some island somewhere and did extensive research.

anyway thats longwinded and all.......but the fact remains the same. There is never a topic that 100% of the people agree on. Therefore its more along the lines of "the majority will believe what they want to believe, and wont give a shit what the minority believes unless the minority brings up convincing evidence"

in short....yes.....the burden of proof is dependent on popular opinion




now......moving on.............

if you really want to know what i think of all this....i look at it this way. There are two factors that determine a match between 2 characters.
1) the level of the character
2) the level of the jutsus the character knows

typically, one character can only beat another character if they use a jutsu that is equal to or higher than the level of the opponent.

mizuki was beatin by kage bunshin (chuunin vs a jounin jutsu)
Haku was beaten by kyubi chakra (jounin vs demon power)
kabuto was beaten by rasengan (jounin vs super A rank blah blah jutsu)
etc....