Beyond the Clouds, The Promised Place

[shinta|hikari]

Sayuri didnt die period. The beginning was presented that way in order to create an atmosphere and feeling of dread and anxiety, something that is usually justified with the numerous tragic (both intentionally and unintentionally) endings in anime. This atmosphere was then completely turned around with the ending, which should be quite unexpected because of the setup right from the beginning. It was of course, also done to prevent spoiling the ending. Just imagine seeing him with Sayuri in the very beginning. The ending would lose 99.99 percent of its goodness. I think it is this style of delivery that really sets this one apart from the rest.

Also the fact that they did not show any solid sign that Sayuri is either dead or not with him anymore automatically defaults the ending to them being together. Being sulky and all around sad looking doesnt have to mean they split up, it just means he grew up.

The times match. Hiroki only said that the story he was about to tell/remember was from a long time ago. The three year reference was made in the context of the story, said by the highschooler Hiroki.

[Kraco]

This movie was such a visual work of art that I don't know why there should be one definite truth about that. If someone sees it as Sayuri having died or gone away, then I think that should be fine. In some cases the story would become meaningful when perceptions are "corrected", but that's only when the story wouldn't make sense or would suck as long as the "incorrect" view remains. I don't think that would be the case here.

But then again, I never paid much heed to any extra material and such which reveals the "truths" about shows and stories. So this is just my opinion. I think a story is better when you are free to feel it as you experienced it and not when everything to the tiniest detail is explained to you by the author or other people involved. But again, this is just what I think.

[Board of Command]

Sayuri didnt die period. The beginning was presented that way in order to create an atmosphere and feeling of dread and anxiety, something that is usually justified with the numerous tragic (both intentionally and unintentionally) endings in anime. This atmosphere was then completely turned around with the ending, which should be quite unexpected because of the setup right from the beginning. It was of course, also done to prevent spoiling the ending. Just imagine seeing him with Sayuri in the very beginning. The ending would lose 99.99 percent of its goodness. I think it is this style of delivery that really sets this one apart from the rest.

Also the fact that they did not show any solid sign that Sayuri is either dead or not with him anymore automatically defaults the ending to them being together. Being sulky and all around sad looking doesnt have to mean they split up, it just means he grew up.

The times match. Hiroki only said that the story he was about to tell/remember was from a long time ago. The three year reference was made in the context of the story, said by the highschooler Hiroki.

I think you misunderstood me. I said the timelines don't match if the Hiroki at the very beginning is actually younger than the one flying the plane.

[shinta|hikari]

BOC - sorry, I guess I did misunderstand.

Kraco - Thats quite true, at least in the case of them splitting up. But if it suggests that Sayuri died, which is completely unfounded, then that would be a different case. Actually, her death would be impossible, since the way Hiroki refers to her in the beginning points to the fact that she is alive, since his use of japanese past tense does not utilize language used when referring to deceased persons. Them splitting up would be viable, and I guess is quite a reasonable interpretation. I just dont believe it rounds the story up as well as a happy ending.

[animus]

I don't know how you think her death is unfounded when there's such an open ending and an intro that has somewhat of a conflict with the ending. You do know that in the intro he doesn't refer to her directly at all. He just says "our promised place" or "our promised land". I don't see how it matters, you do not need to talk about a dead person, and refer to them like they are dead. Sure I'd like the happy ending and wouldn't like to think that Sayuri died, but your reasoning for ruling out a unhappy ending is silly.

[shinta|hikari]

Hahaha, OMG.

When you talk about dead people, you refer to them as if they were DEAD, because they are. Its so simple I cant believe you couldnt get it. True, he referred to what she said to him before in the past tense, but not in the manner you would speak if that person is dead. Oh and he did refer to her directly. But that isnt the main point.

It is the sheer lack of evidence that rules it out. There is no solid proof or even indication that such is the case. Like I said before, them splitting up is plausible due to the stuff that hiroki said, but Sayuri being dead? Come on. If all you assert as the foundation for Sayuri's death is the intro and its disparity with the ending, I can just as well assert that she was kidnapped by aliens 2 years after their reunion and became the queen of some galactic royal kingdom. Get the point?

[animus]

We must be watching different movies, because the intro with Hiroki as an adult and at the abandoned station, he doesn't talk about her at all. All he says it, "On that day long ago, beyond those clouds, lies the place of our promise." If you were talking about when he actually narrates when the actual beginning of the story starts, that is another story. He does refer to her directly, and he refers to her like she's alive, because in the beginning of the story she is alive. It'd be silly if he were to introduce her character, and say that she had died or something from the get go.

You can assert your ending that way. This is an open ending, you do not see them grow old together, or get married or have kids. You just see Sayuri crying on the plane, and it cuts out. By waking Sayuri from the dream, by bringing her to the tower they lost their promised place, being the tower. The tower held all their dream, aspirations, and it was just a sign of something that was theirs, and theirs alone even if in their own world. We don't see her die at the ending, but Hiroki just says "we may have lost our promised place, but our lives begin now.", leaving the ending a pretty wide open ending.

[Ryllharu]

I saw them as tears of happiness, that he went through so much effort to save her from the dreamworld she was lost inside while protecting everyone. In the scene right before she opens her eyes, he says that he's brought her to the promised place, significant only because they said earlier they would use the plane to visit the tower.

She acknowledges that they are about to lose something (a feeling she was unsure of the cause the length of her dream sequence). It should be obvious that they are about to lose the tower as a place they promised to go. She goes on about how she urgently needed to tell him about their dreams and hearts connecting the way they did are an equally special and unique connection, a promised place of their own, forged only by their need to see each other.

I fail to see how Hiroki saying "we may have lost our promised place, but our lives begin now," conveys anything but a positive ending. It correlates directly with Sayuri's speech about losing their place, but knowing they still have something unique together in their hearts.