Chihayafuru

[fireheart]

Of course it's objectively speaking unfair to blame Yumi for something we have no proof of whatsoever that she did, which is why I admitted half of my accusations were groundless. That doesn't change her ill conduct, though, which is the basis for my dim view of her. In addition to her infamy.

Is the ill conduct her attitude when she contended cards or something else? I figured speaking up in Yumi's case is justified as long as she was right but if it's that attitude you're referring to then it's a different matter. As for the infamy I don't have anything since think it's open for interpretation which mean you could be fully right.

Just a question Chihaya's mental breakdown during the match, does that play any role in how you view Yumi?

You're really going to have to clarify at least half of the things you wrote in your response to me for them to make any sense at all.

Just as an example, I have absolutely no idea what, "what Kana has taught us about karuta I think it's fair to say there's at least a logical connection..." has to do with Yumi's behavior/strategy and anything you or I have been discussing. But I gave it the benefit of the doubt and thought back over the course of these episodes. There's no reasonable connection between Kana's fixation on elegance and refinement (which for her extends far beyond karuta and more toward her family's business) and what we have be discussing. Shinobu is a perfect example of that. She acts like someone who simply does not care. She dresses herself in a way that only Chihaya thinks is "cute."

I shall try and hopefully you'll try and answer the one question I've asked you twice already. Why would she feel guilty over contending for cards when we saw that the only two cards we've seen her contend for were rightfully hers? Again I don't understand why she should feel guilty about it other than holding up other peoples games, this is of course assuming she only does it when she's right.

Karuta as we know it through the show is based on poetry and as Kana said in episode 6 at 20:32-20:35 on the history of these poems "only members of the imperial court dabble in poetry" and that's what karuta has it's roots in. Is it ok if I draw the line imperial court = refined people? And this is a game based upon these people. Does that clear up how it has anything to do with Yumi dropping her usual playing style? It has nothing to do with her behavior or strategy as you say as it's nothing more than a theory on why it would be unfit for the queen to contend for cards and be so loud about it. But you are right Kana is fixated on elegance and refinement far beyond karuta as a game but that doesn't make the historical facts she mentioned are false. How much weight each player places on those roots will obviously be different some will care a little, some not at all and other will care greatly.

I'm not sure what else you want me to try and clear up so if there is more please do tell.

[Kraco]

Just a question Chihaya's mental breakdown during the match, does that play any role in how you view Yumi?

Only as a result of Yumi loudly contending the cards. The other troubles Chihaya was suffering are her own faults or a part of her own character. I have complained about them earlier. It's not just losing the cards (rightfully or wrongfully), but for most people, especially since they are Japanese people, rudely disturbing other people's games might be a mental shock. I do blame Yumi for that. If Chihaya, or anybody, becomes afraid every close call will bring about a noisy debate, it will prevent them from playing smoothly.

Dunno, I'm the kind of person who staid rock silent during lectures. I did have some friends who occasionally talked during them, and while I barely ever answered them, I still felt ashamed to be a part of the incident, even though I was only a person someone else talked to.

From justice's point of view there's certainly nothing wrong about contending cards rightfully, but you have to read the atmosphere and the situation. And like I said before, well in the middle of the game, both the players should equally lose cards like that, unless one of them is a cheater. If both are honest, it's nobody's loss, statistically. So, they could let it slide, in order to let other people enjoy their own games.

[Ryllharu]

I shall try and hopefully you'll try and answer the one question I've asked you twice already. Why would she feel guilty over contending for cards when we saw that the only two cards we've seen her contend for were rightfully hers? Again I don't understand why she should feel guilty about it other than holding up other peoples games, this is of course assuming she only does it when she's right.

I fail to see why you believe I've dodged the question. As mentioned, she stopped the practice when she became Queen. Motivation for doing so aside (which I've also stated can only be speculation), whatever the reason, she must have felt it was wrong. She felt guilty about doing it. If she wasn't, she would never have stopped.

Shinta also answered it as well, and it deserves reiterating. Nishida didn't say she argues over cards she's won, she argues over EVERY contested card, and doesn't stop until she gets it. She argues with such confidence, that only the most self-assured opponent would continue the fight until an official would be forced to step in. While there isn't really that much doubt that she had a legitimate case against Chihaya, her karuta society is well aware that she argues in other circumstances where it is far murkier. Her "skill" is getting her opponent to concede the card, whether they had it or not. She makes her swipes for cards weakly, so these instances are far more common. That's why she is a far weaker player when she's not doing it.

There's little point in quibbling over possibilities. If Nishida says she argues every instance where a card is contested, then that's what she does, whether she actually touched the card first, or her opponent just brushed her fingers when they took the card first.

Karuta as we know it through the show is based on poetry and as Kana said in episode 6 at 20:32-20:35 on the history of these poems "only members of the imperial court dabble in poetry" and that's what karuta has it's roots in. Is it ok if I draw the line imperial court = refined people? And this is a game based upon these people. Does that clear up how it has anything to do with Yumi dropping her usual playing style? It has nothing to do with her behavior or strategy as you say as it's nothing more than a theory on why it would be unfit for the queen to contend for cards and be so loud about it. But you are right Kana is fixated on elegance and refinement far beyond karuta as a game but that doesn't make the historical facts she mentioned are false. How much weight each player places on those roots will obviously be different some will care a little, some not at all and other will care greatly.

Not at all. Competitive karuta just happens to be about poetry. It could be nursery rhymes, lines from Enka songs, or even pictures of farm animals, and it wouldn't change the game for the overwhelming majority of its practitioners. In fact, that is exactly the reality of the game in Japan. Characters in Chihayafuru play Uta-garuta. There's also mythological monster karuta, and a nursery rhyme one.

The basis of the Uta-garuta is a fundamental part of it for Kana, but that does not extend it to that level for anyone else that we are aware of. Kana is an admitted Imperial Court Era otaku. Certainly not the previous Queen. Or any title holder. Arata's grandfather appreciated the poems greatly, but he did not live his life that way. Does Shinobu care about them at all? She seems far more the type that is Queen simply because she's good at this particular game.

Kana has gotten a bit disgusted at competitive karuta. No one that high ranking listens to the poems, except perhaps Arata's grandfather. Yumi made zero mention of it, unlike many of the other powerful opponents we've seen. It's clear she views karuta as a practiced skill or talent as she lamented over only having the title for a single year while working so hard. That's why Kana, who still wants to be involved, has set her sights on becoming a distinguished reader rather than playing.

[fireheart]

I fail to see why you believe I've dodged the question. As mentioned, she stopped the practice when she became Queen. Motivation for doing so aside (which I've also stated can only be speculation), whatever the reason, she must have felt it was wrong. She felt guilty about doing it. If she wasn't, she would never have stopped.

Shinta also answered it as well, and it deserves reiterating. Nishida didn't say she argues over cards she's won, she argues over EVERY contested card, and doesn't stop until she gets it. She argues with such confidence, that only the most self-assured opponent would continue the fight until an official would be forced to step in. While there isn't really that much doubt that she had a legitimate case against Chihaya, her karuta society is well aware that she argues in other circumstances where it is far murkier. Her "skill" is getting her opponent to concede the card, whether they had it or not. She makes her swipes for cards weakly, so these instances are far more common. That's why she is a far weaker player when she's not doing it.

There's little point in quibbling over possibilities. If Nishida says she argues every instance where a card is contested, then that's what she does, whether she actually touched the card first, or her opponent just brushed her fingers when they took the card first.

In short you're saying she should feel guilty because she's more or less cheating? As for what shinta said I've already said all I could whether you accept that or not us up to you. But if you are saying she feels guilty for cheating and getting cards she shouldn't get and therefor stopped considering what Nishida said then I got no problems saying it's possible. As I said I don't mind saying it's possible as long as you make it clear why she should feel guilty. The reason I kept asking is because I couldn't really see it clearly in your post it felt ambiguous she should just fell guilty yet no reason why, hence why I felt you never answered the question.

Not at all. Competitive karuta just happens to be about poetry. It could be nursery rhymes, lines from Enka songs, or even pictures of farm animals, and it wouldn't change the game for the overwhelming majority of its practitioners. In fact, that is exactly the reality of the game in Japan. Characters in Chihayafuru play Uta-garuta. There's also mythological monster karuta, and a nursery rhyme one.

The basis of the Uta-garuta is a fundamental part of it for Kana, but that does not extend it to that level for anyone else that we are aware of. Kana is an admitted Imperial Court Era otaku. Certainly not the previous Queen. Or any title holder. Arata's grandfather appreciated the poems greatly, but he did not live his life that way. Does Shinobu care about them at all? She seems far more the type that is Queen simply because she's good at this particular game.

Kana has gotten a bit disgusted at competitive karuta. No one that high ranking listens to the poems, except perhaps Arata's grandfather. Yumi made zero mention of it, unlike many of the other powerful opponents we've seen. It's clear she views karuta as a practiced skill or talent as she lamented over only having the title for a single year while working so hard. That's why Kana, who still wants to be involved, has set her sights on becoming a distinguished reader rather than playing.

It doesn't really matter what Kana is that's not the point it's the facts that she shared that is important. Ok so there are several other forms of karuta but that doesn't change what I said that this form of karuta is based on poetry and that some (example Kana) will care greatly, some (Chihaya) will care to a certain extent and others (probably most players) will not care at all. Again the keywords in this is that it's got it's origins in something refined and some will care while other won't care at all. That's it, unless you're going to tell me that's wrong and nobody who plays the game cares. Now if competitive karuta was with farm animals or something else instead obvious this argument doesn't hold but it's not farm animals it's poetry.

We don't really know enough about Yumi to say it's either way and it's possible the reason why she stopped had nothing to do with any of these things. So in no way am I saying it has to be this way merely that it's a possibility even though I don't agree with your view it's not impossible either given the limited information.