Attack on Titan: Shingeki no Kyojin

[Buffalobiian]

The point of this episode was that these guys started killing each other without talking to each other.

The most impactful bit came from Magath. He started off the episode debating history and righteousness with Jean. I wouldn't say he has the moral high ground, but he does have some world history to base his actions off.

Fast forward to Gabi's confessing that the Paradise Island Devils were all scapegoats for the rest of the world's Eldians so they can act as Good Eldians and deflect all hate towards them. Magath realised that this is something of his doing until this point - If not personally then systemically.

I think where you're wrong MFauli, is that you think that the Scouts killing titans without guilt is the same as scouts killing humans without guilt.

Levi being Levi while missing his bits is quite funny.

The woman in Jean's dream had quite dark hair. On first take I thought he wanted Mikasa's babies.

[MFauli]

Expected reply, Darth, but let me ask you this: If instead of killing the rest of the world (which you oppose so much as "wrong"), Eren had the ability to reverse the anti-Eldian plan (making it so that all non-Eldians can no longer procreate), would you be okay with that? You seem to make a difference between a "killing-genocide" and a "no more procreation-genocide". Murdering people is bad, but slowly having them go extinct is okay? Would it be okay then in reverse? That's what I'm very curious to hear from you.

For the record, I think your morality is quite broken, too.

The woman in Jean's dream had quite dark hair. On first take I thought he wanted Mikasa's babies.

I mean, who doesn't? ;>

[DarthEnderX]

You seem to make a difference between a "killing-genocide" and a "no more procreation-genocide". Murdering people is bad, but slowly having them go extinct is okay?

Not even a little. Global genocide is like a 12-out-of-10 on the villainy scale. Global sterilization is like an 11. It's just slow genocide.

But, again, not the only option available to him. Eren has ALL of the power atm. His avenues for resolving this conflict are practically limitless.

[MFauli]

Not even a little. Global genocide is like a 12-out-of-10 on the villainy scale. Global sterilization is like an 11. It's just slow genocide.

But, again, not the only option available to him. Eren has ALL of the power atm. His avenues for resolving this conflict are practically limitless.

You keep saying this, so I'll ask you to be concrete here:

What are these "limitless avenues"/alternatives that Eren has access to that would not result in anybody's genocide AND would not be a huge gamble risking Eldians' lives? The latter is an important factor, because any failed alternative attempt to resolve things would result in Eldians' total annihilation, while the rest of the world, no matter what happens, would always be able to heal and continue.

I don't see all these countless obvious alternatives, so please, go full-fanfic for me.

[DarthEnderX]

What are these "limitless avenues"/alternatives that Eren has access to that would not result in anybody's genocide AND would not be a huge gamble risking Eldians' lives? The latter is an important factor, because any failed alternative attempt to resolve things would result in Eldians' total annihilation

That's fucking stupid, and is basically just an excuse to remove ALL other options from the table.

"Unless this is 100% guaranteed to work, you HAVE to murder EVERYONE else instead." That's a completely unreasonable and nonsensical restriction to put into place, and I'm not even going to entertain listing hypotheticals with that kind of bullshit handcuffing in place.


Basically, if it had been up to you, we would ALL be fucking dead from nuclear war by now. Because your entire justification is "Well, if there's even the slightest chance they might annihilate us, then it's too dangerous NOT to annihilate them! Don't explore any other options. The risk it too high."

...did ...did you just suggest the author wrote too much of the story? I'm joking; your wording gave me a chuckle. I think your real issue is that you think there is no room for peace or negotiation since things have gone this far.

I think my biggest problem with the writing was the way Willy Tibur was able to unite the entire rest of the world against the Eldians with a single speech. Even though Marley is the ones that had been conquering them and dropping titans on all of them for centuries. Even though that was all Marley's doing, Tibur was somehow able to convince them that, "no, the people we keep imprisoned and basically use as missiles against you are the problem, and you should all help us to go their island and get us even MORE of the power we've been using against all of you".

And they all just agreed to that.

Like, realistically, Eren should just be able to smash Marley's military and government. Free his fellow Eldians, and then begin negotiations with the other countries, having just freed them all from Marley's oppression. Hell, the Japanese-ish country was ALREADY willing to ally with them.

But no. Everyone has to die instead. Every innocent man, woman and child on the planet that's not on the island with him. Fucking stupid.

[MFauli]

That's fucking stupid, and is basically just an excuse to remove ALL other options from the table.

"Unless this is 100% guaranteed to work, you HAVE to murder EVERYONE else instead." That's a completely unreasonable and nonsensical restriction to put into place, and I'm not even going to entertain listing hypotheticals with that kind of bullshit handcuffing in place.

But that's the only realistic scenario for Eren to give up his current plans. And no, it doesn't need to be 100% safe, that's a strawman. Give me 90%, or at least 80% safety. 70% even. But when it's 50:50 or worse, then WHY would any sane person risk the genocide of his own people?! You make it sound like I'm the bad one here. I think your stance is vastly worse than mine.

Basically, if it had been up to you, we would ALL be fucking dead from nuclear war by now. Because your entire justification is "Well, if there's even the slightest chance they might annihilate us, then it's too dangerous NOT to annihilate them! Don't explore any other options. The risk it too high."

You want to bring in real life-politics now? Because I sure as hell AM in favor of fighting Russia with NATO forces. Yes, that would mean some nukes hitting targets in Europe, too, but Russia would be defeated once and for all and all this bs that Putin keeps doing finally ends. The alternative, that is unfortunately what's happening now, is that Ukraine is about to be eradicated from the map, the terrorist regime Putin will ultimately win, and once all of this is over, the situation will be as unstable and unpredictable as before the war started, except now Russia is even stronger. And the moment the West starts doing business with this stronger Russia again will make the EU fall apart and make them look incredibly weak. So, again, yes, I'd risk a nuclear fight, because the alternative is even worse in the long run.

Similar, all the alternatives are worse for Eldians. Unless you finally provide some of your "limitless avenues".

I think you yearn for black and white delineation of justification. That's not here. Attack on Titan's story outgrew that seasons ago.

To clarify this, because you make it sound like I only want some basic bitch-story: Shades of greys are nice. I like that. What angers me is how NOBODY in that group is showing a more black/white-opinion, as if that was wrong. It's not. The most we get is Jean's beating Reiner, but that ends with Jean also joining the rest. And tbh, within these shades of grey, everyone following the same goal is pretty black/white in itself.

[neflight86]

To clarify this, because you make it sound like I only want some basic bitch-story: Shades of greys are nice. I like that. What angers me is how NOBODY in that group is showing a more black/white-opinion, as if that was wrong. It's not.

It's not wrong, per say, but none of these characters have a leg to stand on if they did, which is why they don't. It makes great sense. Who at this camp fire could say, with absolute moral superiority "The other side is completely bad, and we are justified in killing them"? Nobody because they all have blood on their hands. Gabi, early season 4 could do that (in her propagandized ignorance), but has since matured and even she knows things aren't as simple as "We can only prosper if the island devils survive".

[DarthEnderX]

But that's the only realistic scenario for Eren to give up his current plans. And no, it doesn't need to be 100% safe, that's a strawman. Give me 90%, or at least 80% safety. 70% even. But when it's 50:50 or worse, then WHY would any sane person risk the genocide of his own people?!

Okay, so what's the success rate of his CURRENT plan? What are the odds of Zeke just regaining control at any moment and sterilizing the Eldians? Can you tell me what that % is? Or would you just have to make up a number? How do you know the difference between an 80% success plan and a 50% plan?

And the moment the West starts doing business with this stronger Russia again will make the EU fall apart and make them look incredibly weak. So, again, yes, I'd risk a nuclear fight, because the alternative is even worse in the long run.

I feel like the fact that you think "Russia gets stronger and the EU looks weak" is "worse in the long run" than everyone dying in a nuclear war pretty much says it all.